2016-2017 Indians Off-Season Thread

Chris said:

I mean, on a scale of 1 to necessary...

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Cross him off then.

billmac91 said:

It's about long term competiveness for me. I don't think Encarnacion does this club any long term favors. Might work out for a year but I even question that.

At this point, one should question why Edwin is still fishing for his contract. There has to be a lot of trepidation throughout MLB to see him still sitting on the open market....

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I think he's still sitting there because that market (corner power bats) is heavily stocked pretty much at every price range. From him and Trumbo to Napoli to Lind and Alvarez to Chris Carter. Really, all it will take is one of those guys to get signed for the market to fall in to place relatively quick, especially if it's one of the 2 big names.

I don't think it has much to do about reservations on him as a player moving forward, just more that there is a bevy of options available to clubs so they are letting everything fall into place in that market instead of determining it themselves.

I also disagree on it only working out for 1 year.

If what Napoli did last year worked out for us, what Encarnacion would do for the next 3 or 4 will work out for us as well.

Really the only question is, is he worth it at that point? That's probably where the Indians are stuck at. Is he valuable enough to cost you 60-80 million and a 1st round draft pick...we'll find out their answer to that when Encarnacion signs, wherever that may be.

The Wizard of Moz said:

I know I'm going to get lit up for this but I absolutely hate how this is the mindset fans of small market teams in the MLB have adapted to.

We are talking about platooning players as being somehow better than adding one of the best middle of the lineup hitters in the league at (what is rumored to be) a pretty cheap deal for a league leader one rbis

Now if you want to argue the importance of the draft pick, fine. But you're fooling yourself if you think any platoon we can throw out there is going to match EE's production

And like it or not there is a huge distrust of the Dolans in Cleveland and public perception image. A lot of people here say they would spend more if they had better attendance, but I think it's the exact opposite. People will attend more if the public perception wasn't so awful. Signing the marque free agent (again, I want to reiterate this isn't one of those 300 million dollar contracts, this is not a back breaking deal) of this class would send a strong message

Just go for it

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First thing...stop calling people "brainwashed"...it makes you look like a baby whenever someone disagrees with your view on things. How about instead of calling people "brainwashed by the Dolan's" you provide a well thought-out and reasoned argument as to why you disagree with the opinion, like a normal human-being...or like the later portion of this post right here.

Also, why is it bad we are talking about "platooning players". You do realize Napoli platooned with Santana at 1B last year, right? You do realize even if we sign Encarnacion he would platoon with Santana at 1B, right?

As for the last paragraph. There is some truth to the "perception of the Dolan's" creating a wedge between the franchise and fans...however I think the fans are unreasonably harsh at times. Like, where was this new invested interest when they splurged on hiring Francona and spent 100+ million in free agency in the same off season? How come that didn't change perception of the Dolan's being "cheap"? By all accounts, Encarnacion isn't looking for 100 million, but that signing alone is going to change this "perception"?...I don't buy it...some of our fans have become jaded beyond repair, and nothing the Dolan's do will change their perception among a certain group, even spending on the "marquee free agent". They are in line to pay 100+ million in salary the next 2 seasons...and we still have people calling them cheap. Some fans are beyond repair with their feelings towards the franchise.

But in most cases I would be on the other side with regards to signing someone like Encarnacion...however, this case is a bit different than previous years. I think there is logical sense on making the decision to sign him. But I can understand why some fans, who noticed the dip in OPS, the lack of time in the field he will see over the duration of his next contract, and the Swisher/Bourn debacles that still have us paying dead money to this day, are a little hesitant on a small market franchise who values extending their own homegrown players over free agents paying 80 million to a 33 year old for 4 years...

Sad thing is, the team that was built for the 455 consecutive sell out streak was a mostly homegrown team with minor trades that netted Omar, Alomar, Baerga, and Lofton along the way...yet fans who want to return to that want the "marquee free agent signing" in order to bring back that spark...

The Wizard of Moz said:

I know I'm going to get lit up for this but I absolutely hate how this is the mindset fans of small market teams in the MLB have adapted to.

We are talking about platooning players as being somehow better than adding one of the best middle of the lineup hitters in the league at (what is rumored to be) a pretty cheap deal for a league leader one rbis

Now if you want to argue the importance of the draft pick, fine. But you're fooling yourself if you think any platoon we can throw out there is going to match EE's production

And like it or not there is a huge distrust of the Dolans in Cleveland and public perception image. A lot of people here say they would spend more if they had better attendance, but I think it's the exact opposite. People will attend more if the public perception wasn't so awful. Signing the marque free agent (again, I want to reiterate this isn't one of those 300 million dollar contracts, this is not a back breaking deal) of this class would send a strong message

Just go for it

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I'm not sure if you've noticed a trend lately, but a majority of the World Series winners over the last 6 years have been teams that developed their talent through the minor leagues and spent very strategically in FA. Kansas City, San Francisco, the Cubs to a large degree (I concede the Heyward deal goes against my point).

But the Heyward deal is also something that would be crippling to our franchise. Can you imagine us giving a deal like that to Encarnacion and then watch him suck?

IMO we've got a window of 2-3 years without EE. If the Indians FO is extremely strategic that 2-3 years maybe extends to 5-6 years with all of our youth and Minor League system. Signing Encarnacion to a 3-4 year deal essentially takes away all flexibility going forward because our payroll will be tied to 1 player, who in my opinion is a risk at 33 on top of questionable character.

Just one man's opinion....id much rather platoon 1B and DH, keep guys fresh, and play to match-ups while using guys like Ramirez, Lindor, Kipnis everyday.

I mean, is there any beef with how we handled RF down the stretch? Guyer mashes left handed pitching while Lonnie was very good against righties. I don't have a single issue saving some money while finding guys with great splits to insert into the line-up. Part of the reason I was so disappointed Pearce got banned on a great 2 year deal by Toronto (not coincidental who runs their baseball operations).

Thread sux

Chris said:

Thread sux

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All it takes is one post not wanting a move to be made for it to turn into a Dolan's/attendance argument.

Moved some posts to their own thread:

http://www.realcavsfans.com/community/index.php?threads/perception-of-dolans-vs-attendance.47661/

Keep all attendance talk in there.

We could really use an Indians related rumor right about now...

Getting testy...

I agree.

For the record, I hear the apprehension on signing EE. But I also absolutely think it's the right move. If you can get him, get him- within reason, of course.

Chris said:

I agree.

For the record, I hear the apprehension on signing EE. But I also absolutely think it's the right move. If you can get him, get him- within reason, of course.

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I think if he comes down to 3 years ~18 million it gets done. Makes him a free agent at 37 again, and if he produces, can still sign deals like what Beltran signed in 2013 and now in 2016. But in that scenario, I can see someone like Texas or Baltimore joining in and then it will come down to just where he wants to play, which never usually works in our favor.

But I can understand why his agent is slow playing things. Last time his client can sign a long term deal, wants to cash in as much as possible...why people keep saying he made a big mistake saying no to Toronto's 4/80+ offer. Not sure they can get better than that now.

But it isn't the end of the world if we miss out on him IMO. Opens us up to grabbing 2 solid pieces instead of 1 good piece I think.


Also, according to Terry Pluto, teams are gauging the Indians willingness to move Yandy Diaz. Hope they hang up every time someone asks.

Well, I think there is a very small chance we end up with Encarnacion anyways. Pipe dream for the most part, but I was excited about the possibility.

Don't know much about Diaz.

Chris said:

Well, I think there is a very small chance we end up with Encarnacion anyways. Pipe dream for the most part, but I was excited about the possibility.

Don't know much about Diaz.

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Not so sure its very small right now. Think its reasonable at this point, just because of the craziness of the Ian Desmond move to Colorado/lack of a market for those types of guys who are 1B/DH only guys. Never thought both Encarnacion and Trumbo would leave the Winter Meetings unsigned, but here we are.

If the Indians wanted to, they could sign him right now I think. But I'm sure they are weighing a ton of shit right now, since they can go a number of ways with so many power hitting corner bats left out there right now, not to mention they would be negotiating against themselves pretty much at this point.

Still be in favor of bringing Nap back on a short term deal and finding a short term upgrade in CF...

As for Diaz...best pure hitter in our farm...not even close...might be the best hitter in our organization period. Kid can absolutely rake. Can play a few positions defensively as well.

The Wizard of Moz said:

Completely disagree.

His takes aren't nearly hot enough and he hasn't made enough personal attacks on posters for my liking in the Indians section

He'll never make it here with that can-do compromising attitude

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Sorry I live with an honest code and I like to debate with my fellow posters!! lol IF I wish to bash someone it shall be done with a baseball bat to the fingers, not with words from a keyboard. Just remember you do not wish to be on the side of my bashing now since it may cause any type of typing days to be over lol

billmac91 said:

I'm not sure if you've noticed a trend lately, but a majority of the World Series winners over the last 6 years have been teams that developed their talent through the minor leagues and spent very strategically in FA. Kansas City, San Francisco, the Cubs to a large degree (I concede the Heyward deal goes against my point).

But the Heyward deal is also something that would be crippling to our franchise. Can you imagine us giving a deal like that to Encarnacion and then watch him suck?

IMO we've got a window of 2-3 years without EE. If the Indians FO is extremely strategic that 2-3 years maybe extends to 5-6 years with all of our youth and Minor League system. Signing Encarnacion to a 3-4 year deal essentially takes away all flexibility going forward because our payroll will be tied to 1 player, who in my opinion is a risk at 33 on top of questionable character.

Just one man's opinion....id much rather platoon 1B and DH, keep guys fresh, and play to match-ups while using guys like Ramirez, Lindor, Kipnis everyday.

I mean, is there any beef with how we handled RF down the stretch? Guyer mashes left handed pitching while Lonnie was very good against righties. I don't have a single issue saving some money while finding guys with great splits to insert into the line-up. Part of the reason I was so disappointed Pearce got banned on a great 2 year deal by Toronto (not coincidental who runs their baseball operations).

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We have a 2-3 year window to win it all with this roster before we start losing some of our core pieces.

We would have a lineup of Santana, Kipnis, Lindor, Encarnacion, Brantley, Ramirez, Chisenhall/Guyer, Gomes/Perez, Naquin/Almonte, that first 6 of the lineup would be very very hard to get through.

Santana in 86 games as a leadoff guy has an obp of .385 since he drew more walks. He is the guy who sets the tone for the club, by taking pitches. Kipnis is a solid player in general, Lindor hit .300 and if you put Encarncion behind him, teams will pitch to him. Even if Encarncion only hit 35 HR next season with those three guys infront of him we are guaranteed 90+ RBIs from him. Teams then would have to walk Encarnion then have to deal with Brantley or Ramirez in RBI situations which career wise both have been very good at. Now the 7-8-9 do not have to produce to win, so there is less pressure on them.

Signing Encarnacion and putting him in the middle of the lineup makes this the team to beat in baseball. With a healthy pitching staff and the young depth having actual experience now, we would be the team to beat. We don't have anyone to extend at the first base DH position right now.

Diaz to be is a kid who can flat out hit, but he doesnt bring in the power. He is more of a two hole guy who just hits for average and gets on base. This is why the signing of an Encarnion makes sense. The team will extend Lindor in due time and the FO knows it has too. Salazar and Bauer may get an extension as well in 2018 to keep them a few more seasons.

We are in a win now mode, and we have to make a move to get a bat like Encarncion to do it and I feel if you put his career average numbers in this lineup, we have to best odds of winning the world series of any team