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Cavs vs. Warriors -- 2017 NBA Finals

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Who wins?

  • Cavs in 4

    Votes: 23 8.4%

  • Cavs in 5

    Votes: 20 7.3%

  • Cavs in 6

    Votes: 146 53.1%

  • Cavs in 7

    Votes: 55 20.0%

  • Warriors in 7

    Votes: 2 0.7%

  • Warriors in 6

    Votes: 10 3.6%

  • Warriors in 5

    Votes: 7 2.5%

  • Warriors in 4

    Votes: 12 4.4%
  • Total voters
    275
  • Poll closed .
PIP said:
That is their system moreso than their selflessness...

Warriors work because they can bring a versatile real pro like Iggy in and play him for 38 minutes in their biggest game (anyone trust a Cavaliers bench player for 38 minutes?)and get counted on production from Livingston and even play McCaw - a 2nd round rookie guard (we bought one of those in Felder) for 12 minutes (a full quarter of finals basketball) and not miss a beat...

People can talk about Durant all they want (and he played tremoundously) --but to have the confidence and system to just pass the baton to Iggy and Livingston and West and McGee and Clark and McCaw and truly not miss production is so huge.....

Whereas the Cavs are like LeBron is out for 27 seconds (((WTF JESUS))) and Bacon Grease replaces Irving and Frye and Derrick Williams can't get off the bench ??

Think about that... Patrick McCaw got more critical playing time than Frye and Derrick Williams.....

And people wanna just harp on Durant ???

Oh okay....
Click to expand...

Totally agree with your points...it is the GWS system/game plan matches with players of a particular character that makes them effective. KD gives them that actual gloss, but it the role players playing within a system and knowing their job that is critical to their success...and scary because they are going to be good/unbeatable for a few years yet.

Kerr is becoming Pop-esque.

For mine, our problems start with Lue. I am sorry but he is no match for Kerr (or even brown at GWS)...or many other coaches. He got lucky with a title last year on the back of a super human performance from Bron and KI; a brain fade choke from the Dubs and the remnants of Blatts defensive game plan. But he is found wanting in general coaching.

The next problem is the way our roster is constructed and the amount of money we have tied up in it. It is a roster put together based on Bron being better than anyone else in the League (which he is), and all he needs is 4 warm bodies around him and we are good. Very little thought has been put into the types of players we recruit...we have few players prepared to sacrifice their box score for the good of the team (ah, we miss you Delly)...we have overpaid for a number of players (Schump; TT...maybe even Love)...and we now have a team with a lot of salary tied up in one way players with a crap bench and having to play Bron 40 minutes a game to be competitive.

I am not totally across the CBA and the fine detail of what we can and can't do in the off season. but for mine, George for Love is a no brainer if it was possible. But that will not move the dial sufficiently. We need to look at Schump; TT; RJ...there is too much money tied up in those players for the return we get.

For a big name I would even look at KI...I know he has played amazing in patches, is an amazing offensive machine who can do things with the ball that are unstoppable...but he is a complete train wreck on defense (mainly because he doesn't care- defense is predominantly about effort)...there is no point KI scoring 30 points a night against the Dubs and letting their PG score 30
 
I'mWithDan said:
Kyrie is one of the few PG's who is a great match for LBJ because he is lethal off the ball.

Giannis is a poor mans LeBron. He'd be marginalized with a player like LBJ because his point forward skills would go to waste with the ball in LeBron's hands so much.

Only guys in the league I'd consider trading Kyrie for are Kawhi and Anthony Davis. Beyond those two guys, I just don't see a good fit for someone playing alongside LeBron.

I love Giannis, I just don't think he's a great match alongside LBJ specifically.

Kyrie's season was unreal this year.....for further proof....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&force:pos_is=1&qual=pts_per_g_req&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=25&c2stat=ast_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=5&c3stat=fg_pct&c3comp=gt&c3val=47&c4stat=fg3_pct&c4comp=gt&c4val=40&c6mult=1.0&order_by=ws

Kyries 25 / 5 / 47% / 40% season made him the youngest player to ever do it....and only 3 other playrs have done that all time (Bird, Curry and LeBron).
Click to expand...

I'll be damned. I had no idea that Kyrie's season was statistically noteworthy, given 1) the fact that he disappeared from time to time, and 2) the fact that we never won without LeBron.

The fact that the Cavs can't win with LeBron not playing, or not playing WELL, is weird, and it's a problem. I don't get it - Kyrie and Love should be able to win games without LeBron, but they never do...
 
thunder_down_under said:
Totally agree with your points...it is the GWS system/game plan matches with players of a particular character that makes them effective. KD gives them that actual gloss, but it the role players playing within a system and knowing their job that is critical to their success...and scary because they are going to be good/unbeatable for a few years yet.

Kerr is becoming Pop-esque.

For mine, our problems start with Lue. I am sorry but he is no match for Kerr (or even brown at GWS)...or many other coaches. He got lucky with a title last year on the back of a super human performance from Bron and KI; a brain fade choke from the Dubs and the remnants of Blatts defensive game plan. But he is found wanting in general coaching.

The next problem is the way our roster is constructed and the amount of money we have tied up in it. It is a roster put together based on Bron being better than anyone else in the League (which he is), and all he needs is 4 warm bodies around him and we are good. Very little thought has been put into the types of players we recruit...we have few players prepared to sacrifice their box score for the good of the team (ah, we miss you Delly)...we have overpaid for a number of players (Schump; TT...maybe even Love)...and we now have a team with a lot of salary tied up in one way players with a crap bench and having to play Bron 40 minutes a game to be competitive.

I am not totally across the CBA and the fine detail of what we can and can't do in the off season. but for mine, George for Love is a no brainer if it was possible. But that will not move the dial sufficiently. We need to look at Schump; TT; RJ...there is too much money tied up in those players for the return we get.

For a big name I would even look at KI...I know he has played amazing in patches, is an amazing offensive machine who can do things with the ball that are unstoppable...but he is a complete train wreck on defense (mainly because he doesn't care- defense is predominantly about effort)...there is no point KI scoring 30 points a night against the Dubs and letting their PG score 30
Click to expand...

Yea Kyrie outscoring and out playing the 2 time MVP is really a negative for us...smh...Jesus Christ he has been great the last 2 finals and has been pretty good vs Steph when he is actually asked to defend him
 
wremy said:
Yea Kyrie outscoring and out playing the 2 time MVP is really a negative for us...smh...Jesus Christ he has been great the last 2 finals and has been pretty good vs Steph when he is actually asked to defend him
Click to expand...

How did KI outplay Curry? Curry averaged 27 pts and 9.4 assist for the Finals as against KI at 29/4.4. Curry didn't have to score as much because of other players on the Dubs team and turned into more of a facilitator. And KI only scored heavily in games 3 and 4...take game 4 away and his averages would have been well under Curry. I stand by my point...Kyrie is a lazy defender who refuses to work hard...as amazing as his offence is, his defense is a major negative
 
skurey said:
He was the best player on a team that just won the NBA title. He carried Steph and everyone else this series.
Click to expand...


Ok, I have spent some time the last few days trying to help the "Durant best eva!" crowd get a grip on reality.

Let's try this again.

Initially, I thought that Durant > Curry in The Finals. And this would differ from the 2016-17 regular season and full playoffs if true.

Then I went over to NBA Wowy and saw this. I apologize if this has already been posted. This is for the 2017 Finals:


Curry on, Durant on -----------> 125.4 ORTG; 105.9 DRTG; +19.5 NRTG
Curry on, Durant off -----------> 118.6 ORTG; 105.2 DRTG; +13.4 NRTG
Curry off, Durant on -----------> 109.6 ORTG; 106.5 DRTG; +03.1 NRTG


Durant didn't carry anyone anywhere.

Bad eye tests are why advanced stats exist. Bad eye tests and flashy stats that might not tell you everything.

Durant had a great Finals, and deserved the FMVP, but the "carry Curry" thing is a joke.



EDIT ----> This data appears flawed, as there seems something amiss currently on the NBA Wowy site. So this data may very well not be accurate.
 
Last edited:
Melo is done. His knee is not good. No way he holds up in a Warriors series.

Windy said basically this just the other day.
 
LeShaq said:
Ok, I have spent some time the last few days trying to help the "Durant best eva!" crowd get a grip on reality.

Let's try this again.

Initially, I thought that Durant > Curry in The Finals. And this would differ from the 2016-17 regular season and full playoffs if true.

Then I went over to NBA Wowy and saw this. I apologize if this has already been posted. This is for the 2017 Finals:


Curry on, Durant on -----------> 125.4 ORTG; 105.9 DRTG; +19.5 NRTG
Curry on, Durant off -----------> 118.6 ORTG; 105.2 DRTG; +13.4 NRTG
Curry off, Durant on -----------> 109.6 ORTG; 106.5 DRTG; +03.1 NRTG


Durant didn't carry anyone anywhere.

Bad eye tests are why advanced stats exist. Bad eye tests and flashy stats that might not tell you everything.

Durant had a great Finals, and deserved the FMVP, but the "carry Curry" thing is a joke.
Click to expand...



I may have bad data here. I just ran this again on NBA Wowy and got different results. So I'm going to consider the above numbers suspect for now.
 
So am I the only one who thinks our ball movement died after the Finals last year? I'd be interested to see our passes per game from the start of the playoffs last year to the end this year.
 
How big would Wilson Chandler or Rudy Gay (healthy) have been for the Cavs this year?

More I think about it all we needed would another good athlete that can shoot and have guard KD.

A fresher LeBron probably dominates even more. Plus the lack of bench....killed us.
 
JMoneyYourHoney said:
Game 3 LeBron dropped 39-11-9

...still can't get over that. Korver making that shot not only gives LeBron another Finals triple-double to hang his hat on but changes the entire complexion of the series.

Fuckin' fraud.
Click to expand...
Guys miss shots, it sucks, but I don't hate Korver.

What killed us that game was Kyrie going hero ball and ruining a 2 for 1 opportunity. I know LeBron was disappointed he gave up that Durant 3, but he should have ran the offense there when its a 2 for 1 opportunity.

Lue is to blame as well for not calling a timeout after that 3. Then again even he probably didn't think Kyrie would do what he did.
 
Smh. I really hope Melo becomes a Cav so I can see this for myself, and why aren't you gold yet damn't? You need that like now.
LeShaq said:
Melo is done. His knee is not good. No way he holds up in a Warriors series.

Windy said basically this just the other day.
Click to expand...
 
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