Cavs vs. Warriors -- 2017 NBA Finals

[Rich]

Honest to god every time you guys post a Skip Bayless tweet or respond to him, he's already won. How do you not understand this?

We're like a decade into the internet age of trolling, and still people keep getting trolled so easily.

 

[MarkyCavs88]

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/CavsNationNet/status/874884280094261248?p=v

 

[I'mWithDan]

I'll be damned. I had no idea that Kyrie's season was statistically noteworthy, given 1) the fact that he disappeared from time to time, and 2) the fact that we never won without LeBron.

The fact that the Cavs can't win with LeBron not playing, or not playing WELL, is weird, and it's a problem. I don't get it - Kyrie and Love should be able to win games without LeBron, but they never do...

Honestly, I think we are all guilty of it having watched LeBron night in and night out. I used to be taken back by how many people talked to me about Kyrie when I would be out and about wearing Cavs gear. I used to always think "does this guy know LeBron is on the team?"

But this season certainly is a microcosm of that very thing. Kyrie's year was historic statistically. His scoring and efficiency levels were crazy, as is evidence by the list he is on. He was the 4th player in NBA history to produce those splits and I would imagine very few if any fans knew it.

But I agree that one of the things the Cavs truly need to figure out is how we can win games with LeBron playing 30 min a night. Part of that is Kyrie understanding that he needs to reign in a lot of the 1-on-1 play when LeBron hits the bench and start to pick his spots better. A lot of times we get in trouble because Kyrie takes quick shots and has sloppy possessions when LeBron exits. It's especially apparent when LeBron and Kevin are left in. Love just stands there, knowing he'll never get the ball...offense stagnates and unless Kyrie is unconscious, we quickly bleed points.

One of the big keys for next year is certainly Kyrie learning to play more of a two man game with Love, as well as make better decisions in the half court. Kyrie was spectacular in games 3 and 4 and for most of game 5 but he had a lot of really untimely shots and TO's that eventually spun us out of control.

 

[bigfoot5415]

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/CavsNationNet/status/874884280094261248?p=v

Their relationship is truly amazing. Kyrie almost seems in awe by Lebron yet doesnt shy away from the moment himself.

How many duos could you say that about in league history? If Kyrie can hit that next level, we are a very dangerous team.

 

[I'mWithDan]

If we are chasing vets, I'd be circling anyone who still has something left in the tank who has proven they can perform at a conference finals / NBA finals level.

My only exception is George, because he's young and has immense talent. Guys like Melo do not get me excited at all. Ditto for the Rudy Gay's of the world.

I'd go all in on Thabo if we're talking TMLE. Full court press. Every Cav calling and visiting him. He has the toughness and length on the perimeter we really need.

Plan B is Covington for me. A big bodied, capable defender who would be a nice finisher off the ball with LeBron. It sounds like Philly may be open to moving him, especially if they take or acquire a wing. I'd dangle Cedi and pieces and see what they say. That's potentially a quick short cut to a young 3&D player.

It's pretty much slim pickens though given our assets. Beyond stealing a player like Covington or convincing Thabo to come for the tax payer MLE, we have few realistic options on the wing.

 

[KilgoreTrout]

Fellas- I'm bored. I don't have anything to care about anymore.

I mean, sure - I've got a wife and kids and a meaningful job. But next to basketball, and world championships: how important is that stuff, REALLY?

 

[LeShaq]

Ok, I have spent some time the last few days trying to help the "Durant best eva!" crowd get a grip on reality.

Let's try this again.

Initially, I thought that Durant > Curry in The Finals. And this would differ from the 2016-17 regular season and full playoffs if true.

Then I went over to NBA Wowy and saw this. I apologize if this has already been posted. This is for the 2017 Finals:


Curry on, Durant on -----------> 125.4 ORTG; 105.9 DRTG; +19.5 NRTG
Curry on, Durant off -----------> 118.6 ORTG; 105.2 DRTG; +13.4 NRTG
Curry off, Durant on -----------> 109.6 ORTG; 106.5 DRTG; +03.1 NRTG


Durant didn't carry anyone anywhere.

Bad eye tests are why advanced stats exist. Bad eye tests and flashy stats that might not tell you everything.

Durant had a great Finals, and deserved the FMVP, but the "carry Curry" thing is a joke.



EDIT ----> This data appears flawed, as there seems something amiss currently on the NBA Wowy site. So this data may very well not be accurate.

OK, I think I have the actual data now. And it shows pretty much the same thing as the above.

SC on, KD on -------------> 128.6 ORTG; 120.9 DRTG; +07.7 NRTG; 174m
SC on, KD off -------------> 146.7 ORTG; 086.7 DRTG; +60.0 NRTG; 007m
SC off, KD on -------------> 078.8 ORTG; 097.0 DRTG; -18.2 NRTG; 016m
SC off, KD off -------------> 092.2 ORTG; 088.2 DRTG; +04.0 NRTG; 027m


Durant without Curry in the series = fail.

So if someone tells you "Durant carried the Warriors" or "Durant > Curry," just show them this data.

The Finals was Durant's best series/situation relative to Curry all season long for the Warriors. And even in that situation, the reality of Curry being the Warriors' centerpiece shone through.

 

[Alec]

Got be honest, how much better can we expect Kyrie to get? 30-4-4 puts him in a pretty high tier.

 

[czvo]

OK, I think I have the actual data now. And it shows pretty much the same thing as the above.

SC on, KD on -------------> 128.6 ORTG; 120.9 DRTG; +07.7 NRTG; 174m
SC on, KD off -------------> 146.7 ORTG; 086.7 DRTG; +60.0 NRTG; 007m
SC off, KD on -------------> 078.8 ORTG; 097.0 DRTG; -18.2 NRTG; 016m
SC off, KD off -------------> 092.2 ORTG; 088.2 DRTG; +04.0 NRTG; 027m


Durant without Curry in the series = fail.

So if someone tells you "Durant carried the Warriors" or "Durant > Curry," just show them this data.

The Finals was Durant's best series/situation relative to Curry all season long for the Warriors. And even in that situation, the reality of Curry being the Warriors' centerpiece shone through.

It's so weird because I think it's both obvious that:

1. KD is a flat out better basketball player than SC and
2. SC is far more important to the things the Warriors like and want to do

You don't see that very often. One of the bigger things that stands out to me, looking back at this series, is that the Cavs tried to single cover KD the whole way. They literally couldn't bring doubles or shade him because of Curry/Klay. I honestly don't think KD is any better than he was last year. He didn't become some great champion or clutch player with this title. He's the same guy he's been. He just now operates in more space and with less attention than ANY top-5 player ever. I can't think of another all-time great that had that luxury.

 

[LeShaq]

It's so weird because I think it's both obvious that:

1. KD is a flat out better basketball player than SC and
2. SC is far more important to the things the Warriors like and want to do

You don't see that very often. One of the bigger things that stands out to me, looking back at this series, is that the Cavs tried to single cover KD the whole way. They literally couldn't bring doubles or shade him because of Curry/Klay. I honestly don't think KD is any better than he was last year. He didn't become some great champion or clutch player with this title. He's the same guy he's been. He just now operates in more space and with less attention than ANY top-5 player ever. I can't think of another all-time great that had that luxury.

And that's exactly why advanced stats exist, to help "tease out" who is who and what is what.

For the Warriors and their current system, Curry is the king. They simply do not exist, as the super Warriors, unless Curry is the fulcrum point.

It's not an accident that the Warriors are 15-0 in their last 15 games without Durant.

Durant is important, but he's not Curry. And no gaudy surface-level stats can hide that fact.

The numbers will tell you everything. And the more you look at them, the clearer it gets.

Maybe in the future the Warriors become a "Durant system" team, but right now they don't seem built around that.

 

[Futuredome]

A nice 5 series war with the Warriors end in triumph and Lebron breaking down in post-winner presser, in 2019, after winning his 5th title. Wondering if this is the end of the road? Then comes 2020's and the new generation.

 

[Taiter]

Got be honest, how much better can we expect Kyrie to get? 30-4-4 puts him in a pretty high tier.

He's a great scorer, a baller when it counts, and he made some strides this year in distributing the ball, but:
* More effort on defense. (Lue needs to control his minutes in return)
* Improve efficiency. He's so good that he puts up a lot of mid-range and related shots that are (relatively) low-efficiency.
* And #1... He can become a better floor general, especially with Lebron out of the game.

His improvement is going to be key to this team having a chance to get another ring.

 

[czvo]

He's a great scorer, a baller when it counts, and he made some strides this year in distributing the ball, but:
* More effort on defense. (Lue needs to control his minutes in return)
* Improve efficiency. He's so good that he puts up a lot of mid-range and related shots that are (relatively) low-efficiency.
* And #1... He can become a better floor general, especially with Lebron out of the game.

His improvement is going to be key to this team having a chance to get another ring.

I agree with 1 and 3, but can't agree with the bold. Kyrie was 47/40/90 this year, and part of what makes him so dangerous is his ability to score from every part of the court. The only way he can get more "efficient" would be to start chucking threes, and I see no reason for him to do that.

I do think that, when it comes to a finals match-up with GS, he has to increase his three point attempts. However, over the course of the season, he's fine where he's at.

 

[Pioneer10]

It's so weird because I think it's both obvious that:

1. KD is a flat out better basketball player than SC and
2. SC is far more important to the things the Warriors like and want to do

You don't see that very often. One of the bigger things that stands out to me, looking back at this series, is that the Cavs tried to single cover KD the whole way. They literally couldn't bring doubles or shade him because of Curry/Klay. I honestly don't think KD is any better than he was last year. He didn't become some great champion or clutch player with this title. He's the same guy he's been. He just now operates in more space and with less attention than ANY top-5 player ever. I can't think of another all-time great that had that luxury.

Kobe with Shaq definitely had this benefit. The gravitational pull of Shaq was just ridiculous in his prime both bigs would be within 5 feet of him with a wing player ready to collapse on him

 

[Real Deal]

Not sure this was posted, but here's Draymond's response to LeBron's Ultimate Warrior shirt

Dan Gilbert would like his Q being advertised.

Then there's this: