Cedi Osman Goodbye & Good Luck

Derek · Oct 28, 2019

The Human Q-Tip said:
1) Because it may mean you're ignoring some prodigious talents who can't "dribble, pass, shoot, and drive." Rather than simply drafting the best talent available and figuring out how to best utilize those talents within a system that you adjust to fit the talent, you're instead constantly searching for players who fit a pre-determined system, and rejecting those who don't. Even if the available players who can do a little bit of everything aren't actually as good as other guys who are available. So you pass up guys like Jokic, Gobert, and Vucevic. Klay Thompson had poor handles for an SG, rarely drove, and really wasn't much of a passer either. Giannis is a crappy shooter.

2) It also has no mention at all of players who can defend. Very college-like to worry only about offense, and count on your defensive system to be good enough regardless of your defensive talent.

Because you're never going to be able to get that -- nobody ever does. Even GSW at their greatest didn't have that. A good coach is going to want some players who can't do all those things, will figure out how to best take advantage of the talents they do possess, and will want to hang on to them. The idea that we're going to reject players who don't fit Beilein's particular vision of what amounts to positionless basketball is foolish to me because it inevitably will lead to overlooking some more talented players.

I think you’re taking a post, that wasn’t even a quote from Beilein, too literally.

He’s proven over the years that he is quite apt at fitting his system to the talent he has. There’s nothing wrong with him preferring to have an unpredictable offensive attack where all 5 guys can beat you.

As for the defensive comment, it wasn’t even a Beilein quote! The guy has always been a good defensive coach known for adjusting his defensive style to fit his personnel.

Every coach should be striving to develop their players to excel at all aspects of the game. So, why shouldn’t they also push to acquire guys that already have those skills?

It doesn’t mean he can’t or won’t coach guys who don’t possess all those skills. It’s just something you strive for. Ex. His PG last year, who was also his best player, is an AWFUL shooter. It didn’t stop Michigan from being one of the most efficient offenses in the NCAA last year though.

I don’t think we really disagree here. I just thinking you’re taking the idea way too literally. Again, that wasn’t even a quote from Beilein that you’re breaking down.

Wham with the Right Hand · Oct 28, 2019

Cedi needs to work very hard on his defense, which was awful last year. If he could become a good perimeter defender he would be useful since we have a lot of guys who can score.

He also needs to improve his 3-point accuracy so he can punish teams who slough off him to help in the paint.

Finally, he needs to work on going to his left. He can't dribble with his left hand and teams know it. It would also help if he could develop a floater. He's basically a slasher, not a jump shooter, but he has a tough time finishing at the rim because he's not a great leaper. He needs to ask Delly or Clarkson for lessons on how to shoot a floater from the 5-10 foot range.

He needs to be a high-energy wing who can defend, gets steals, fill a lane on the break, knock down an open 3, and slash to the hole and score on a floater or draw a foul. He needs to be a guy who doesn't handle the ball much or take a lot of shots but picks his spots and is efficient.

MRMsix6 · Oct 28, 2019

The Human Q-Tip said:
1) Because it may mean you're ignoring some prodigious talents who can't "dribble, pass, shoot, and drive." Rather than simply drafting the best talent available and figuring out how to best utilize those talents within a system that you adjust to fit the talent, you're instead constantly searching for players who fit a pre-determined system, and rejecting those who don't. Even if the available players who can do a little bit of everything aren't actually as good as other guys who are available. So you pass up guys like Jokic, Gobert, and Vucevic. Klay Thompson had poor handles for an SG, rarely drove, and really wasn't much of a passer either. Giannis is a crappy shooter.

2) It also has no mention at all of players who can defend. Very college-like to worry only about offense, and count on your defensive system to be good enough regardless of your defensive talent.

Because you're never going to be able to get that -- nobody ever does. Even GSW at their greatest didn't have that, which means that a good coach is going to want some players who can't do all those things, and will figure out how to best take advantage of the talents they do possess. The idea that we're going to reject players who don't fit Beilein's particular vision of what amounts to positionless basketball is foolish to me.

Beilein has been coaching for 40+ years, so we can easily go back and look at his teams and see if your concerns are warranted.

I'll leave you with a couple names from very recent memory.

Zavier Simpson
Charles Matthews

A point guard and a wing player who featured heavily on Beilein's recent Michigan teams, neither of whom can shoot a lick. Their most outstanding quality? Defense. Beilein hand-picked these guys, relied on them and loved them.

The guy absolutely knows how to assemble a team of complementary talents, and yes that includes defense.

The Human Q-Tip · Oct 28, 2019

Derek said:
I think you’re taking a post, that wasn’t even a quote from Beilein, too literally.

If that "five guys who can dribble, shoot, pass, and drive", isn't a fair statement of what he wants, then why did you direct me to that quote when I asked you what kind of guys he wants? I mean...I'm trying to figure out what it is that Beilein wants that is different from what other coaches want. And that's to reiterate the point that I don't want us drafting guys to fit Beilein's system in particular...whatever the hell it is.

Again, the genesis for this discussion was someone commenting that Zizic isn't his kind of guy because he doesn't fit Beilein's image of what a center should be. So I think bringing up guys like Jokic and Gobert is a legitimate counter-point because neither of them fit the supposed "modern" image of a center. Yet, both are very much impact players. I want us acquiring talented guys regardless of whether they are a fit for Beilein's system, because they're likely to be here longer than he is.

If the answer is "well, don't worry because Beilein is just going to take the most talented guys there are and use them in his system", that's fine. But then the whole point about players fitting or not fitting his system doesn't make any sense.

Nathan S · Oct 28, 2019

MRMsix6 said:
Beilein has been coaching for 40+ years, so we can easily go back and look at his teams and see if your concerns are warranted.

I'll leave you with a couple names from very recent memory.

Zavier Simpson
Charles Matthews

A point guard and a wing player who featured heavily on Beilein's recent Michigan teams, neither of whom can shoot a lick. Their most outstanding quality? Defense. Beilein hand-picked these guys, relied on them and loved them.

The guy absolutely knows how to assemble a team of complementary talents, and yes that includes defense.

I think the point is that under Beilein, those guys shot a lot of 3's even though they couldn't shoot very accurately. Simpson, Matthews, and Teske all shot around 30% from 3 last year, but together they took nearly 8 attempts per game. That's him forcing his offensive system, where everyone's supposed to be a 3-point threat, on a team that simply didn't have 3-point threats at every position.

The Human Q-Tip · Oct 28, 2019

MRMsix6 said:
Beilein has been coaching for 40+ years, so we can easily go back and look at his teams and see if your concerns are warranted.

I'll leave you with a couple names from very recent memory.

Zavier Simpson
Charles Matthews

A point guard and a wing player who featured heavily on Beilein's recent Michigan teams, neither of whom can shoot a lick. Their most outstanding quality? Defense. Beilein hand-picked these guys, relied on them and loved them.

The guy absolutely knows how to assemble a team of complementary talents, and yes that includes defense.

My point is that it isn't Beilein's job to assemble a team of complementary talents to fit his system. It's Altman's job to get him the best talent available, and it's then Beilein's job to maximize those guys' talents. And again, this line of discussion all stems from this statement earlier in the thread:

Wham with the Right Hand said:
Zizic is a classic low post center who doesn't fit the modern NBA and Beilein's vision of five players who can all dribble, pass, shoot and drive.

That's the post I was addressing to start all this. But if your response to that is "Beilein's vision shouldn't determine who we acquire because he'll adapt his system to fit the talent no matter what", I'm completely on board with that.

Derek · Oct 28, 2019

The Human Q-Tip said:
If that "five guys who can dribble, shoot, pass, and drive", isn't a fair statement of what he wants, then why did you direct me to that quote when I asked you what kind of guys he wants? I mean...I'm trying to figure out what it is that Beilein wants that is different from what other coaches want. And that's to reiterate the point that I don't want us drafting guys to fit Beilein's system in particular...whatever the hell it is.

Again, the genesis for this discussion was someone commenting that Zizic isn't his kind of guy because he doesn't fit Beilein's image of what a center should be. So I think bringing up guys like Jokic and Gobert is a legitimate counter-point because neither of them fit the supposed "modern" image of a center. Yet, both are very much impact players. I want us acquiring talented guys regardless of whether they are a fit for Beilein's system, because they're likely to be here longer than he is.

If the answer is "well, don't worry because Beilein is just going to take the most talented guys there are and use them in his system", that's fine. But then the whole point about players fitting or not fitting his system doesn't make any sense.

I directed you to that post because you quoted it. Every coach would love to have five guys who can do it all, so to criticize that thought was interesting to me.

You keep talking like this would keep us from acquiring other, more talented players. Can you provide an example to me of someone who can do all of those things well, but isn't supremely talented?

You keep bringing up Jokic as a counterexample, and I'm confused as to why? He's the exact type of player that fits that mold of a guy who can do it all offensively at a position where, historically, you wouldn't expect him to.

I've never said anything about a guy not fitting Beilein's system because I don't believe he has one. Sure he has a system he's developed specifically for this team, but that's fluid, and will change year to year depending on personnel.

Nathan S · Oct 28, 2019

To me, this sounds too much like Longabardi's vision of having 5 guys who can switch everything on defense. Guys who can guard 1-5 are great, and no one's disputing that. But if you have more limited or specialized players, you can't force them to be versatile and expect good results.

Derek · Oct 28, 2019

Nathan S said:
I think the point is that under Beilein, those guys shot a lot of 3's even though they couldn't shoot very accurately. Simpson, Matthews, and Teske all shot around 30% from 3 last year, but together they took nearly 8 attempts per game. That's him forcing his offensive system, where everyone's supposed to be a 3-point threat, on a team that simply didn't have 3-point threats at every position.

I think that's more of a player development tool than him forcing his system.

If you look, those 3 guys had drastically less 3PA in the Big 10 and National Tournaments than they did in the regular season.

Beilein has proven over time that he doesn't really have a set system.

Nathan S · Oct 28, 2019

Derek said:
I think that's more of a player development tool than him forcing his system.

If you look, those 3 guys had drastically less 3PA in the Big 10 and National Tournaments than they did in the regular season.

In 3 losses to Michigan State and 1 loss to Texas Tech (all in the last 10 games of the season), those guys went 2/25 from deep. At 6.25 attempts per game you're right that they attempted somewhat fewer 3's than they did against lesser opponents, but it was still a significant part of Beilein's gameplan.

Derek · Oct 28, 2019

Nathan S said:
In 3 losses to Michigan State and 1 loss to Texas Tech (all in the last 10 games of the season), those guys went 2/25 from deep. At 6.25 attempts per game you're right that they attempted somewhat fewer 3's than they did against lesser opponents, but it was still a significant part of Beilein's gameplan.

I'm talking about the entire postseason. Their shot selection was decidedly different.

Beilein is all about player development, and helping guys play to their strengths. I've never once seen him force a system on a team; he's always made adjustments to fit his coaching style to the personnel on his roster.

The Human Q-Tip · Oct 28, 2019

Derek said:
Beilein has proven over time that he doesn't really have a set system.

So he doesn't really have a set system, and he's fine with taking the best talent and using it efficiently. Koby can just draft/acquire the best talent without regard to Beilein at all because he'll take whatever talent he's given and use it as efficiently as possible. That's great - it's exactly what I've been saying should be the case all along.

Derek said:
You keep talking like this would keep us from acquiring other, more talented players. Can you provide an example to me of someone who can do all of those things well, but isn't supremely talented?

That's never been the argument. The argument has been that there is no way in hell you can acquire five guys who can do that, so you have to seek out and acquire talent that can't do all those things rather than forcing square pegs into round holes.

You keep bringing up Jokic as a counterexample, and I'm confused as to why?

Because he is not really proficient at dribbling/driving, and isn't particularly mobile. He's not a positionless guy.

I've never said anything about a guy not fitting Beilein's system because I don't believe he has one. Sure he has a system he's developed specifically for this team, but that's fluid, and will change year to year depending on personnel.

Ugh. Look, I was responding to a different post made by a different poster, and it was his point I was criticizing. If you're making a different point than he was, then my response to him obviously doesn't implicate you at all. All I'm advocating is that we don't draft talent to fit Beilein's system, and if we're in agreement on that, then there's no issue.

Derek · Oct 28, 2019

The Human Q-Tip said:
So he doesn't really have a set system, and he's fine with taking the best talent and using it efficiently. Koby can just draft/acquire the best talent without regard to Beilein at all because he'll take whatever talent he's given and use it as efficiently as possible. That's great - it's exactly what I've been saying should be the case all along.

That's never been the argument. The argument has been that there is no way in hell you can acquire five guys who can do that, so you have to seek out and acquire talent that can't do all those things rather than forcing square pegs into round holes.

Because he is not really proficient at dribbling/driving, and isn't particularly mobile. He's not a positionless guy.

Ugh. Look, I was responding to a different post made by a different poster, and it was his point I was criticizing. If you're making a different point than he was, then my response to him obviously doesn't implicate you at all. All I'm advocating is that we don't draft talent to fit Beilein's system, and if we're in agreement on that, then there's no issue.

I was simply confused about why you seemed to be anti-"five guys who can dribble, shoot, and pass". I didn't think we'd have a multi-post discussion :chuckle:

Zizic may very well not fit the system Beilein has developed for this team. We won't know until he's healthy, but I will say that Tristan seems to be doing fine as an interior based big man.

Stark · Oct 28, 2019

Cavatt said:
How are Browns defensive numbers? I'm surprised because it was supposed to be a good defensive team.

Jaylen Brown is honestly a pretty overrated defender for a guy who is touted as being the next great 3&D player in the league by the Boston fanbase.

His contract is a joke for a player who is slightly below replacement level in today's NBA. Maybe he plays his way up to it eventually, but I doubt it.

MRMsix6 · Oct 28, 2019

Nathan S said:
I think the point is that under Beilein, those guys shot a lot of 3's even though they couldn't shoot very accurately. Simpson, Matthews, and Teske all shot around 30% from 3 last year, but together they took nearly 8 attempts per game. That's him forcing his offensive system, where everyone's supposed to be a 3-point threat, on a team that simply didn't have 3-point threats at every position.

You're moving the goal posts of the post I responded to. Q-tip was expressing concerns of Beilein "ignoring some prodigious talents who can't "dribble, pass, shoot, and drive." Rather than simply drafting the best talent available and figuring out how to best utilize those talents within a system that you adjust to fit the talent, you're instead constantly searching for players who fit a pre-determined system, and rejecting those who don't. "

Forget for a second that Beilein isn't actually drafting anyone, he demonstrably did not ignore talented guys who don't possess every offensive skill to fit his this mythical system that doubters keeper playing up. There is no strict Beilein system that only certain players can play in. He highly values certain traits, like pretty much every other coach ever. That's it. He would love a guy like Jokic. That was an absurd name to bring up.

And then "It also has no mention at all of players who can defend. Very college-like to worry only about offense, and count on your defensive system to be good enough regardless of your defensive talent. "

Just a post from a place of complete ignorance. Nothing more to be said.

Guys, we don't have to guess and speculate about Beilein's coaching philosophies and the type of teams he has built.

Cedi Osman Goodbye & Good Luck

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