Perception of Dolans vs Attendance

Steve_424 said:

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Some interesting stuff here.

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The Tribe’s payroll wasn’t $150 million last season.

Kevalier said:

The Tribe’s payroll wasn’t $150 million last season.

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This is where I pulled info from:

USA Today lists 2019 as $122,875,033. Not sure why BR has a different number.

Without regard to precision, I made a chart of the ranks in this data while adding another column: overall record rank.
It shows three lines which indicate relative payroll, attendance, and regular season team performance. I wanted to strip it down as far as possible and give every data line a common denominator.
The fourth line is the moving baseline, adjusted for expansion teams which change the context of the league over time.
I know nothing about making graphs; I had some difficulty formatting things. Sorry if it's a bit hard on the eyes.

Then, just because I felt like it, I arbitrarily erased a significant outlying portion of sports history which included new stadiums, browns leaving, the return of a certain form of football, franchises being bought and sold, the final episode of Seinfeld, and then picked it back up with the drafting of LeBron James.
I also flattened out the data and baseline for aesthetic purposes. Take from this graph what you will.
(note: attendance actually looks comparatively solid over the last 3 years, though completely dwarfed by payroll and performance)

The Oi said:

Tie the tv numbers to those numbers too to give a full picture.

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That wouldn't give a full picture at all. Forbes is the closest we will ever have, and they clearly show the Indians are spending right around what they can afford.

AZ_ said:

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I think that’s where a lot of people get it twisted when people speak positively about the “front office” or “organization”. Ownership isn’t being talked about or lumped into that, at least not for me.

Straight barebones, just looking at the front office on down, minus the ownership equation, and I’d argue that the Indians are one of the best run franchises in all of sports, let alone baseball.

Consistently been on the cutting edge of so much the last 25+ years. Started the trend of extending guys still in the minors or just after they debuted to add an extra couple seasons of team control. Cutting edge of early analytics. One of the earlier franchises to poach Baseball America or Baseball Prospectus for scouts. Now they’re making a move in Latin America that is second to none.

It’s a shame ownership looms so negatively over the continuity Hart, Shapiro, and Antonetti have created for the Indians over the last 3 decades, and how they’ve set up a small market to consistently be competitive for a least one stretch of each given decade. You’d be hard pressed to find other small markets in baseball that can do that and rebound and weather the talent turnover.

BimboColesHair said:

It’s a shame ownership looms so negatively over the continuity Hart, Shapiro, and Antonetti have created for the Indians over the last 3 decades, and how they’ve set up a small market to consistently be competitive for a least one stretch of each given decade. You’d be hard pressed to find other small markets in baseball that can do that and rebound and weather the talent turnover.

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And it's a uniquely Cleveland punishment-from-above that the best management team of our three major league franchises happens to work for the owner with the least room to spend, in the sport that allows the most variation in player spending. Imagine if Antonetti/Chernoff had a Gilbert or Haslam (he may have faults, but available cash ain't one of them) writing the checks ....

I suspect that may be one reason Cleveland fans react so negatively to any suggestion about the Dolans' spending limits: they don't see the other teams in town ever having issues with spending. Doesn't matter that they are in different sports with different attendance patterns and vastly different salary structures; all some people know is that the Indians are often cutting salaries, whereas the other teams aren't.

If you put our front office from the past 25 years behind an organization like the Yankees, I think we're looking at the most dominant run baseball has ever seen.

Of course, if you took off the financial restraints, would they have been as innovative and creative? Who knows.

But, another thing non-Indians related that I keep seeing. Why do people think Jimmy Haslam is an owner who's willing to spend? Gilbert, obviously, went above and beyond in a sport with a soft cap. But Haslam's in a hard-capped sport. Why do fans keep lumping him in as an owner willing to spend above his means when I can't recall him doing a single thing (besides firing coaches) that deserves this title?

AZ_ said:

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Yeah, gotta be honest, that first paragraph is ridiculous. I’ve defended Dolan plenty and still commend him on how he allows his front office to operate without overstepping them, the investment he’s made in the Dominican Republic and his local philanthropy including causes like Freshwater Cleveland. Having said that, the guy is enormously tone deaf and singling out praise for the fans with more money is embarrassing. As someone who saves as much as I can to make it to at least ten games a season, I like to think that I am just as valuable in the community and as loyal of fan as some rich dude who can afford suites.

AZ_ said:

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Can you imagine if Haslam would have said something like this? That first paragraph is the 2020 equivalent of a Marge Schott quote.

lebrownsfan said:

Can you imagine if Haslam would have said something like this? That first paragraph is the 2020 equivalent of a Marge Schott quote.

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The Marge Schott comparison doesn’t hold up considering, you know, she said “Hitler did some good things.” But, I thought the exact thing in terms of Haslam. To be fair to Dolan, he doesn’t have the history that Haslam has in terms of defrauding customers, but it goes back to my original point of Dolan’s severe lack of awareness and being tone deaf.

lebrownsfan said:

Can you imagine if Haslam would have said something like this? That first paragraph is the 2020 equivalent of a Marge Schott quote.

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To be fair, Haslem says and does dumber shit