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2021 Spring Training Thread

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You should know by now that, for me, it's impossible for any player to change their trajectory based on spring training outings.

Heck, I took grief at the beginning of last year for saying we wouldn't have a great idea of who Civale really is as an MLB starter until probably mid-to-late 2021, if not later.

I am on your side with the evaluation for that time frame on Civale.

He also started strong last season and finished poorly. In my opinion, how he recovered from that poor finish was the make or break in my mind long term when it comes to being a legit starter or a swing starter/long reliever.
 
I am on your side with the evaluation for that time frame on Civale.

He also started strong last season and finished poorly. In my opinion, how he recovered from that poor finish was the make or break in my mind long term when it comes to being a legit starter or a swing starter/long reliever.
Ultimately, we've seen him pitch just 131.2 MLB innings, that's not even a full season worth of innings.

It takes substantially longer than that for most pitching stats to stabilize and to weed out the noise.

He's faced just over 500 batters in his career, and it takes about 2000 balls in play before BABIP stabilizes (we're not even close to that point yet!)

With him making a few tweaks, it might take even longer to know who he is with any level of certainty.
 
I'm not that worried about Civale. If all he ends up being is what he has been so far...and he can provide a consistent 160 IP, he's a MOR league average SP.

As for Quantrill, I don't see his time as a starter in San Diego as weak...more like normal for a youngster who gets shuffled between rotation and pen.

In 2019 he first got to SD in May, after seven starts in the PCL. Around multiple relief appearances, he was pretty darned good for a rookie...until he hit the wall the last week of August. In his last six starts he gave up 29 ER in 21.2 IP. His ERA up until that point was 3.32. Not too shabby.

He was usually a 5-6 IP pitcher, so he didn't rack up many traditional quality starts. But up until he hit the wall, he made 13 starts...4 QAs, and six in which he went at least five without giving up more than two runs.

The Padres have been esp bad at developing starting pitching, which is why they've had to spend a fortune in dollars and talent to put a rotation together.

Maybe Lamet and Paddack will break the trend, but Perdomo, Lucchesi, and Lauer all bit the dust.
 
Can someone explain why Civale's new release is such a big deal? It's all going over my head.
 
Can someone explain why Civale's new release is such a big deal? It's all going over my head.

Jup is best at explaining that stuff.

But basically, his new approach puts less strain on his elbow, while widening his ability to master his pitches with simplified mechanics.

With baseball mechanics, less is more.
 
Can someone explain why Civale's new release is such a big deal? It's all going over my head.
This may be a little obvious but it is the first thing you look at from a pitching perspective.

You can't improve if you aren't able to throw.

So as simpleton as that may seem, it is the most fundamental. Civale changing his arm action (so he will stay healthy) will allow him to throw more consistently and put in more hours training - more hours training usually leads to more improvement. So changing your arm action to "be healthy" becomes a very big deal.

You see it in guys like Giolito - someone whom I watched through HS and on into the pros. It was clear he would end up hurt, but changing a top prospects delivery is a risky thing. Especially if it is not generated by the pitcher themselves. He had trouble training because his arm was always "hurting". Along comes TJ and he himself decides he needs to make changes. Best time for a pro to do it - during rehab from TJ. Made some smart choices.

I was watching Hunter Greene's (another of the local flora and fauna of SoCal HS baseball) start the other day for the Reds. Has made very similar changes during his rehab.

So there you have the significance - top flight pitchers on the shelf or with the inability to progress because they can't train (and in pitching, training is throwing).

So there is this guy (whose name I shall not mention) who came into the league as the flag bearer for that exact type of arm action ("the shortest" arm action, at least at that time). The guy who throws and throws and then throws some more. Who was derided for the amount of throwing he did non stop. The comment you would most commonly hear was something like, "that guys arm is going to fall off, he throws so much, no way he will last". He has become the model for many young pitchers, and many use him as a source for making these type changes. I don't know of any direct link between he and Civale, but the link between he and Cleveland are clearly there. And the lasting impact on their program is clearly there. But he throws much more because his arm stays healthy, and it allows him to get in a much bigger volume of training time. Especially during the off season.

Ideally Civale would get the ball to "his hip" upon take away a little better. Doesn't really mean anything as far as health goes, but it would help make his delivery a little more deceptive and probably tick up his velocity slightly as his scap load would be much better. But bully for Civale in making the change. Not easy to do when you put at risk your livelihood with no guarantee how it will turn out.

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No doubt, but I still wonder if we'd have the Juan Marichals, Sam McDowells, and Gaylord Perrys in this day and age.
Just for kicks, I went and checked John Tudor's career stats.. Anyway, I suggest folks take a quick look at the pitching stats/cy young winners/rankings from 1985.... Quite a different look from today. Lots more work vs. lots more Ks...

1985:

and 30 years later 2015:
 
[Civale has] faced just over 500 batters in his career, and it takes about 2000 balls in play before BABIP stabilizes (we're not even close to that point yet!)

With him making a few tweaks, it might take even longer to know who he is with any level of certainty.
So far Shane Bieber has faced 1,641 batters. Subtract the 583 batters he's either walked or struck out and he's put approximately 1,058 balls in play. So we're about halfway to where his BABIP numbers stabilize and we find out "who he is with any level of certainty".

As of now we have no level of certainty and we're just guessing so I don't know why the Indians are reportedly interested in extending him before they have a clue as to whether he can pitch up here.

FWIW, Bieber's BABIP his first three years, starting with his rookie year, is .356, .298. and .267. Wow, you're right, it hasn't stabilized yet. Better hold off before making any long term committments.
 
So far Shane Bieber has faced 1,641 batters. Subtract the 583 batters he's either walked or struck out and he's put approximately 1,058 balls in play. So we're about halfway to where his BABIP numbers stabilize and we find out "who he is with any level of certainty".

As of now we have no level of certainty and we're just guessing so I don't know why the Indians are reportedly interested in extending him before they have a clue as to whether he can pitch up here.

FWIW, Bieber's BABIP his first three years, starting with his rookie year, is .356, .298. and .267. Wow, you're right, it hasn't stabilized yet. Better hold off before making any long term committments.
You’re literally helping my point by showing the volatility of BABIP even comparing season to season. Also, stabilization has nothing to do with the number staying consistent from year to year.

Plus, I didn’t even say we had to wait for BABIP to stabilize before knowing anything. I actually said we should have a good idea by the end of this year assuming he’s healthy enough to pitch the full season.

I get it, you have no interest in statistical analysis of baseball, but there’s no reason to pretend I’m just making shit up. Whether you’re interested in it or not, these type of analyses have proven to be some of the most accurate predictors we have of a player’s future performance.
 
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Just listening to radio and Hentges has a 99 mph pitch to start inning - and 96 for 2nd hitter. Yet, they were clueless saying he has never thrown that fast (only to do it again - but hit this time).
 
You’re literally helping my point by showing the volatility of BABIP even comparing season to season. Also, stabilization has nothing to do with the number staying consistent from year to year.

Plus, I didn’t even say we had to wait for BABIP to stabilize before knowing anything. I actually said we should have a good idea by the end of this year assuming he’s healthy enough to pitch the full season.

I get it, you have no interest in statistical analysis of baseball, but there’s no reason to pretend I’m just making shit up. Whether you’re interested in it or not, these type of analyses have proven to be some of the most accurate predictors we have of a player’s future performance.
I love statistical analysis but I have no idea what you're trying to say.

It seems to me that BABIP is affected by at least four things.

1. Hard hit percentage. More hard hit balls are base hits than weakly hit balls.

2. Defense. Excellent defenders rob hitters of hits and lower the pitcher's BABIP. This fluctuates from year to year and is completely out of the pitcher's control, except for his own fielding.

3. The park. Some parks are more conducive to a higher BABIP depending on size of the park, altitude, temperature, and dryness. Parks that are cold in April and May rob batters of home runs which helps the pitcher's BABIP.

4. Luck. Some seasons a higher percentage of a pitcher's line drives are caught and a lower percentage of bloops drop in.

So I don't see how BABIP ever truly "stabilizes" since the last three factors change from year to year, especially if the pitcher changes teams. A pitcher in his fourth season might have a worse BABIP than he did as a rookie due to a worse defense, a better ballpark for hitters, and bad luck even if he's a better pitcher.

It seems to me that the statistics that are completely based on the pitcher's performance (which is what we should use) are things like hard hit percentage, strikeout percentage, walk percentage, ground ball/fly ball ratio, and line drive percentage. And to some extent, stolen base percentage although that also depends on the catcher.

BABIP is only one component of pitching. In some cases, BABIP is relatively unimportant. Last year Bieber pitched 77.1 innings, meaning he recorded 232 outs. He struck out 122, meaning almost 53% of his outs were by strikeout. A guy like that isn't affected by BABIP nearly as much as a guy who strikes out 15%.

So I don't get what's so important about waiting several years for a pitcher's BABIP to stabilize. Based on the variables that are out of a pitcher's control it's never going to stabilize.

As for Civale, I thought last year was interesting because even though he obviously regressed overall, there was some progress. His hard hit percentage dropped 1.5%. His ground ball percentage increased 4.2%. His K percentage increased 1.8% and his walk percentage decreased 2%.

You'd think that a pitcher who struck out more, walked less, put more balls on the ground, and allowed fewer hard hit balls would improve over the previous year. But Civale's FIP increased from 3.40 to 4.03. The problem, from what I can tell, was home runs. His home run rate doubled, from 0.6 to 1.3 per 9 innings. Despite forcing more ground balls and increasing his strikeout rate he got victimized by more long balls.

It looks like he pitched better in general but made a few more bad pitches that resulted in a lot of runs.

Despite his hard hit percentage dropping by over 4% Civale allowed 10.0 hits per 9 against 6.9 the year before. I have to believe there was a lot of bad luck involved last year. A lower hard hit percentage should result in fewer hits allowed, not 45% more. However, his line drive percentage increased nearly 7%. He must have given up a lot of softly hit line drives.

The key for him this year is avoiding the long ball. If he does that and keeps all his other numbers where they were last year he should have a very good season.
 

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