Cookie hasn’t even pitched, so what stability would he provide? It would be the same situation, but with an extra guy in the DL.
-
Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.
Pitching
- Thread starter jup
- Start date
Cookie hasn’t even pitched, so what stability would he provide? It would be the same situation, but with an extra guy in the DL.
33Y0
Jobu Needs A Refill
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2020
- Messages
- 3,444
- Reaction score
- 5,989
- Points
- 113
Well considering A) you’re assuming he would even gotten injured with the Tribe and B) he’s not out with a season-ending injury, he would still be another better option for the Tribe than we currently have.
No doubt about that
sportscoach
RD's Guardians PR Man!
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2016
- Messages
- 20,946
- Reaction score
- 9,645
- Points
- 113
We have talent, and it's not like Bieber, Plesac and Civale aren't trying to help out their fellow pitchers, but they are all just young in the sense of MLB time and general age... Having someone older that's being through the ups and downs on life and on the field I think would help out everyone including Willis. Now we just need to go find that person... That's not the easiest part in the world since you gotta find someone that organically fits in like @The Human Q-Tip mentioned the other day. In time we will see but I wouldn't be surprised to see a veteran SP brought in at some point this season.
CDAV45
Small ball is for pussies!
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2020
- Messages
- 10,197
- Reaction score
- 6,509
- Points
- 113
You and I have discussed this ad nauseum. What will not hurt this club is a steady presence in the 4 hole. If you think that "clubhouse chemistry" is an issue for this team then you have no f'n clue. So I say to you or anyone else. What would be more beneficial, acquiring a good pitcher or Tomlin? Common sense should give you the answer quickly and it should also tell you that CA, MC, and Tito do not tolerate cancers anyway. There's plenty of leadership on this team.
sportscoach
RD's Guardians PR Man!
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2016
- Messages
- 20,946
- Reaction score
- 9,645
- Points
- 113
Even Tomlin right now would do honestly... And I feel like we do need more veterans on the team honestly, but we will never agree to something that cannot be seen on paper or heard directly from someone...
CDAV45
Small ball is for pussies!
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2020
- Messages
- 10,197
- Reaction score
- 6,509
- Points
- 113
Agreed, accept for the Tomlin take. It's an argument over unknowns. Maybe they need it. Maybe they have it. If any of Bieber, Plesac, or Civale aren't leaders I'd still like to have another one.
Edited to say that I'll make a deal with you. We can get a veteran leader as long as he performs well. That way we both get what we want.
sportscoach
RD's Guardians PR Man!
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2016
- Messages
- 20,946
- Reaction score
- 9,645
- Points
- 113
What is performing well in your mind? But it seems like we can come to an agreement here
You need someone who is respected, accepted and a teacher.
The pitching staff doesn't suffer from a lack of leadership, it suffers from a lack of teacher-ship. Arguing over leadership is missing the mark.
But acceptance and respect are necessary in a clubhouse because there are plenty of egos and testosterone to go around no matter which clubhouse you talk about. And you can lead horses to water, but you can't make them drink unless they want to. Acceptance and respect go a long ways to creating a thirst in younger pitchers.
One place where Bauer excelled on the staff starting with Clevinger running up through Biebs, Plesac and Civale.
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2019
- Messages
- 10,058
- Reaction score
- 28,869
- Points
- 135
Great job by Sandlin, Shaw, Clase, and Karinchak tonight; 4.2 innings, no hits, no runs, 6 K's. Our back end has been exceptional.
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2019
- Messages
- 10,058
- Reaction score
- 28,869
- Points
- 135
Bieber's response when asked if hitters are adjusting to him:
“Teams are kind of laying off the off-speed stuff down, which has been my strength the last two years."
They showed a graphic during the game showing where each pitch was located on Bieber's strikeouts on his breaking ball. A majority were below the knees and out of the zone. There was also a column in FanGraphs a while back making the case that last year hitters would have done better against Bieber if they never swung the bat. A lot of his strikeouts would have been walks if batters just stood there and took every pitch.
Now players seem to be aware that swinging at low pitches against Bieber almost guarantees making an out. They're letting it go and waiting on something up in the zone. Yesterday Josh Donaldson had a 3-2 count and was clearly expecting a breaking ball that would come in at knee level and drop. He got a fastball just above the knees for a called strike three and the runner was thrown out trying to steal second.
Watching the game I kept saying Bieber needs to use his fastball more. It will be interesting to see if he does that next time out. He was having trouble locating it yesterday. The home run to Sano was a fastball right down the middle. Sano could not hit the breaking ball to save his life, however.
I was impressed with Sandler, who fell behind Simmons 3-0 with two out and the bases loaded with the score tied in the 6th. He was missing badly. But he manned up and threw two fastballs on the outside corner. On the 3-2 pitch with Simmons looking for another heater Sandler crossed him up with a slider on the outside corner that broke off the plate. Simmons, reading a fastball, swung and missed to strand three runners and keep the game tied.
Finally, Joe Noga had this on McKenzie:
McKenzie has held opposing batters to a .159 average in innings 1-3 of his eight starts, but has a 16.88 ERA in the fourth.
It's baffling to watch him cruise along and then in the blink of an eye totally lose his command, walk a couple of hitters, and then groove a fastball in a desparate effort to throw a strike. The stuff is there but he hasn't been able to maintain it for longer than three innings. Hopefully he can get over this hump. If not he could still be a guy you bring in to pitch a couple of middle innings effectively.
“Teams are kind of laying off the off-speed stuff down, which has been my strength the last two years."
They showed a graphic during the game showing where each pitch was located on Bieber's strikeouts on his breaking ball. A majority were below the knees and out of the zone. There was also a column in FanGraphs a while back making the case that last year hitters would have done better against Bieber if they never swung the bat. A lot of his strikeouts would have been walks if batters just stood there and took every pitch.
Now players seem to be aware that swinging at low pitches against Bieber almost guarantees making an out. They're letting it go and waiting on something up in the zone. Yesterday Josh Donaldson had a 3-2 count and was clearly expecting a breaking ball that would come in at knee level and drop. He got a fastball just above the knees for a called strike three and the runner was thrown out trying to steal second.
Watching the game I kept saying Bieber needs to use his fastball more. It will be interesting to see if he does that next time out. He was having trouble locating it yesterday. The home run to Sano was a fastball right down the middle. Sano could not hit the breaking ball to save his life, however.
I was impressed with Sandler, who fell behind Simmons 3-0 with two out and the bases loaded with the score tied in the 6th. He was missing badly. But he manned up and threw two fastballs on the outside corner. On the 3-2 pitch with Simmons looking for another heater Sandler crossed him up with a slider on the outside corner that broke off the plate. Simmons, reading a fastball, swung and missed to strand three runners and keep the game tied.
Finally, Joe Noga had this on McKenzie:
McKenzie has held opposing batters to a .159 average in innings 1-3 of his eight starts, but has a 16.88 ERA in the fourth.
It's baffling to watch him cruise along and then in the blink of an eye totally lose his command, walk a couple of hitters, and then groove a fastball in a desparate effort to throw a strike. The stuff is there but he hasn't been able to maintain it for longer than three innings. Hopefully he can get over this hump. If not he could still be a guy you bring in to pitch a couple of middle innings effectively.
Athletic had a great stat, too. 3/62 with 44ks in two strike counts when he’s ahead.
He’s going to be a great pitcher, but he needs more seasoning and to get out of his own head.
So I have posted before about it taking some time for the league to adjust to a pitcher, and here you have it from the horses (Biebs) mouth.
Scouting reports, therefore hitters, work off an accumulation of data. That data doesn't accumulate real fast when you only face hitters maybe 3 (if you are really good and they don't yank you for the dreaded 3rd time around) times a game and maybe a couple times per season. Yes there is tendency data and they will look at that. But the strongest memories are from face to face matchups. And it is that memory, of standing at the plate and facing a pitcher, that is most prevalent, in making those split second swing/no swing decision at the plate.
So good teams, good hitters, that haven't had much success against a pitcher will finally begin to "zone" you. And that is what is happening to Biebs. You hear pitchers say stuff like - "wow, they didn't chase that pitch, I always got chase on that before". And the best pitchers recognize what is happen to them and adjust. That is why, with all Biebs success, he isn't necessarily a known commodity quite yet. It will depend on his ability to adjust to the this trend which develops as teams/hitters learn how to attack him better.
They section the plate. So with Biebs, a general rule would be something like - anything starting mid thigh or lower you don't swing - because he uses so many chase pitches (CB, SL) below the zone. And they simply use the rule to govern when they will swing the bat. That way Pitch Identification becomes a mute point. They work off location identification. And in his case it takes away the one main thing he has always had since his arrival - the fact that hitters can't see the difference between his slider and FB. So if they see a pitch that looks like a FB, that will end up in the lower part of the zone, they simply don't swing. If it happens to be a FB, they just look stupid, but they aren't chasing SLs and CBs at their toes. And depending on the pitchers mix and or count, taking called strikes on a FB gives you a better chance of success than trying to ID the type of pitch that is coming at you.
Sometimes it takes teams/hitters awhile to figure it out, even if it has been obvious for awhile. And in Biebs case, it has been obvious for quite some time. But teams/hitters are finally waking up and we will see where it goes from here.
Last edited: