Pitching

[Wham with the Right Hand]

You realize that they use about 100 different balls in the average MLB game, right?

Exactly, which is why I was thinking that as each ball is thrown out it goes into a bag or pouch labelled "top of the 4th" or "bottom of the 6th". Then the balls are examined by the umpires after the game to see if they're tacky. If they encounter any balls sticky to the touch those would be sent to a lab for confirmation.

If balls from the bottom of the 6th and 7th are positive then you can see which pitcher was pitching those innings. That's if you want to try and identify which pitcher is cheating and punish him individually.

I prefer just having two bags - one for the home team's balls and one for the visitors. After the game you have maybe 50 balls that were taken out of play when each team was on the field. If more than one or two balls were doctored that team forfeits the game. Don't bother to try and figure out which pitcher was doing it, or if it was the catcher. Let the team figure it out and deal with it internally if they don't want to keep forfeiting games they won.

I don't think pine tar on the bats would be a problem because it's dark in color, but I would get rid of it as well.

It's like when a horse wins a race and tests positive. The win is forfeited. The race officials don't try to figure out who doped the horse. They don't care if it was the trainer, the veterinarian, or the jockey. Let the owner figure that out and take whatever steps he deems appropriate.

 

[sportscoach]

While they're at it, get rid of pine tar as well. You don't need to put tar on a bat in order to hang onto it. I'm fine with batting gloves that have a rubbery layer on the inside to get a better grip on the bat. Batters stopping the game to reapply pine tar to the bat handle is another thing that slows down the game, along with an insane number of swings and misses.

They got rid of tobacco, they can get rid of tar and stickum, too.

Batting gloves slow down the game more than the pine tar does lol I see a lot of batters step out adjust gloves, step back in, step back out adjust gloves etc... Pine tar barely effects anyone time wise since they usually take care of it in the on deck circle before they even have to at bat.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

From Zach Meisel at The Athletic:

When the Indians score four or more runs, they’re 17-1. When they score three runs or fewer, they’re 1-13.

So 94% of the time the outcome is decided solely on whether the Indians score four runs or not.

Meisel also had this:

No team has faced more change-ups than the Indians, and by a considerable margin. This isn’t a new development; they also saw the most change-ups in 2019.

Is it a product of simply facing more pitchers who throw change-ups, or have teams noticed Cleveland’s hitters struggling to adjust to the pitch? I posed that question to Francona, who said: “Probably both. I think early on, we’ve shown that we’re struggling with change-ups. Every team has either advanced scouts or analytics and statistics to back that up, so until we prove them differently, we’re probably going to continue to see that.”

Here are Cleveland hitters’ stats vs. change-ups in 2021:

.167 average (28th in the league)
.202 expected average (29th in the league, based on quality of contact)
.278 slugging percentage (25th in the league)
.317 expected slugging (28th in the league, based on quality of contact)

 

[CDAV45]

From Zach Meisel at The Athletic:

When the Indians score four or more runs, they’re 17-1. When they score three runs or fewer, they’re 1-13.

So 94% of the time the outcome is decided solely on whether the Indians score four runs or not.

Meisel also had this:

No team has faced more change-ups than the Indians, and by a considerable margin. This isn’t a new development; they also saw the most change-ups in 2019.

Is it a product of simply facing more pitchers who throw change-ups, or have teams noticed Cleveland’s hitters struggling to adjust to the pitch? I posed that question to Francona, who said: “Probably both. I think early on, we’ve shown that we’re struggling with change-ups. Every team has either advanced scouts or analytics and statistics to back that up, so until we prove them differently, we’re probably going to continue to see that.”

Here are Cleveland hitters’ stats vs. change-ups in 2021:

.167 average (28th in the league)
.202 expected average (29th in the league, based on quality of contact)
.278 slugging percentage (25th in the league)
.317 expected slugging (28th in the league, based on quality of contact)

Great post Wham! Now the question is this because they are so young or do they lack the ability to adjust?

 

[jup]

Exactly, which is why I was thinking that as each ball is thrown out it goes into a bag or pouch labelled "top of the 4th" or "bottom of the 6th". Then the balls are examined by the umpires after the game to see if they're tacky. If they encounter any balls sticky to the touch those would be sent to a lab for confirmation.

If balls from the bottom of the 6th and 7th are positive then you can see which pitcher was pitching those innings. That's if you want to try and identify which pitcher is cheating and punish him individually.

I prefer just having two bags - one for the home team's balls and one for the visitors. After the game you have maybe 50 balls that were taken out of play when each team was on the field. If more than one or two balls were doctored that team forfeits the game. Don't bother to try and figure out which pitcher was doing it, or if it was the catcher. Let the team figure it out and deal with it internally if they don't want to keep forfeiting games they won.

I don't think pine tar on the bats would be a problem because it's dark in color, but I would get rid of it as well.

It's like when a horse wins a race and tests positive. The win is forfeited. The race officials don't try to figure out who doped the horse. They don't care if it was the trainer, the veterinarian, or the jockey. Let the owner figure that out and take whatever steps he deems appropriate.

Am I really to believe that you really believe what you put in the two posts on this subject?

Eliminating pine tar from a professional baseball diamond is like asking dolphins to fly through the air instead of swim through water. And it isn't just pine tar these days, it is just stickey stuff in general. You are talking about a change in something that has been part of the fabric of the game for literally 100's of years

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Am I really to believe that you really believe what you put in the two posts on this subject?

Eliminating pine tar from a professional baseball diamond is like asking dolphins to fly through the air instead of swim through water. And it isn't just pine tar these days, it is just stickey stuff in general. You are talking about a change in something that has been part of the fabric of the game for literally 100's of years

The fabric of the game - right. You mean like....pitchers batting for themselves and players chewing tobacco? Or like managers being able to switch pitchers whenever they want?

Yeah, we definitely couldn't get rid of something as essential as pine tar. That would be like not letting players put lampblack on their faces. It would literally destroy the game.

I mean, the NFL lets quarterbacks take air out of the ball if they want, right? Why shouldn't we let players use sticky stuff? Strikeouts are fun to watch - the more the better.

 

[33Y0]

The fabric of the game - right. You mean like....pitchers batting for themselves and players chewing tobacco? Or like managers being able to switch pitchers whenever they want?

Yeah, we definitely couldn't get rid of something as essential as pine tar. That would be like not letting players put lampblack on their faces. It would literally destroy the game.

I mean, the NFL lets quarterbacks take air out of the ball if they want, right? Why shouldn't we let players use sticky stuff? Strikeouts are fun to watch - the more the better.

I mean, considering both hitters and pitchers are using the stuff... it's not just a one sided issue. This won't solve anything.

 

[Criznit]

Pine tar is here to stay. Unless it turns out it causes cancer, then it might get banned...

 

[jup]

The fabric of the game - right. You mean like....pitchers batting for themselves and players chewing tobacco? Or like managers being able to switch pitchers whenever they want?

Yeah, we definitely couldn't get rid of something as essential as pine tar. That would be like not letting players put lampblack on their faces. It would literally destroy the game.

I mean, the NFL lets quarterbacks take air out of the ball if they want, right? Why shouldn't we let players use sticky stuff? Strikeouts are fun to watch - the more the better.

Sarcasm is good, and I understand your point. But my question is directed at how prevalent that stuff is on the field of play.

How about the shortstop that rubs the pocket of their glove with it so the ball stays in there just a little better. And hitters don't need it to keep the bat in their hands ? Monstrous hacks that produce prodigious home runs take a lot of adhesion to the bat.

To each his own, but taking away pine tax, that is a step to far for me

 

[Derek]

I can't believe the use of pine tar on bats is being equated to using chewing tobacco

 

[Lee]

Pine tar is here to stay. Unless it turns out it cause cancer, then it might get banned...

Can you imagine all the crooked lawyer adds at midnight?

"Did you play high school baseball?" ....... "Did you use pine tar?" ........ "Did it lead to testicular cancer and anal warts?"

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Can you imagine all the crooked lawyer adds at midnight?

"Did you play high school baseball?" ....... "Did you use pine tar?" ........ "Did it lead to testicular cancer and anal warts?"

That... that's not how you're supposed to use pine tar @Lee ... it doesn't go up there.

Well, thanks doc. You could've told me this BEFORE it grabbed onto my double-sided dildo (we call it the Drilldo) with the strength of Jose Canseco's roided up hands gripping his bat. Now how do we get it out!?

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

I mean, considering both hitters and pitchers are using the stuff... it's not just a one sided issue. This won't solve anything.

Pitchers putting a sticky substance on their fingers increases RPM's signficantly and makes the pitches break more sharply and be more difficult to hit. This is reflected in the decrease in batting average and increase in strikeouts. OTOH, pine tar on the bat handle does not increase bat speed or help the batter make better contact. The pitchers have the big advantage in the sticky war.

If batters want to spray or rub a little stick on the palms of their batting gloves I'm OK with that. The only reason I'm talking about getting rid of pine tar is to help enforce the ban on pitchers using stick. If they're going to check the balls they have to eliminate other ways sticky stuff can get on the balls besides being applied by pitchers.

Baseball players have adjusted to a lot since the game was invented. Night baseball, wearing batting helmets, the DH, changes in the height of the mound and the size of the strike zone, changes in the aerodynamics of the baseball, and the shift, just to name a few. Batters can adapt to not having pine tar and still manage to hang on to the bat long enough to contact the ball. After contact having the bat in your hand is a liability.

Take away the sticky stuff from pitchers and the pine tar from batters and fielders and the game will survive and be the better for it because there will be fewer strikeouts and more action. If fielders put pine tar in their gloves and the stuff is found on the balls that are taken out of play - that's a forfeit. No stickum and no pine tar anywhere on the field. Level playing field for everyone. More offense. No concerns about flying bats killing spectators because they've expanded the nets halfway to the fences.

The game was better after steroids were eliminated. Same with players spitting tobacco juice. It will be better after all the sticky stuff is gone.

 

[Lee]

That... that's not how you're supposed to use pine tar @Lee ... it doesn't go up there.

Well, thanks doc. You could've told me this BEFORE it grabbed onto my double-sided dildo (we call it the Drilldo) with the strength of Jose Canseco's roided up hands gripping his bat. Now how do we get it out!?

I am sorry doc, that is how @Out of the Rafters at the Q told me i am supposed to catch what he is pitching.

I will know better next time.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I am sorry doc, that is how @Out of the Rafters at the Q told me i am supposed to catch what he is pitching.

I will know better next time.

I feel like this post is obligated to have an edit added to it...