Cleveland Guardians Offseason Discussion 2021-22

Mott the Hoople said:

So we just missed on some trades and FA's.
Let me ask this,,,
What the hell kind of organization goes into an unpopular re-brand like this?
How the hell can you negotiate a new lease and take money to redo Progressive Field and show appreciation like this?
How can we waste one of the final years of perhaps the finest modern manager in MLB.
The G's have a unique opportunity to win local fans due to the Browns deciding to float their boat with a sleeze bag QB.

They have to make a move to show people the are at least trying.
At this point, even a Swisher move would help.

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Apparently, they don't buy into "you never get a second chance to make a first impression.".

Lord Mar said:

Well, I'd be interested in hearing more about their motives.

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It varies. Nothing groundbreaking.

1) There’s some general annoyance with the lockout. Some of the sarcastic glad the billionaires were able to agree with the millionaires type rhetoric.

2) some have expressly mentioned really disliking Rob Manfred.

3) Lots of disappointment that after a rebrand the team hasn’t done anything to inspire the fan base. Thought it was just a huge missed opportunity to propel the team into the next generation.

4) A lot have pointed out that the organization has publicly suggested payroll would increase. The articles about the new minority owner. Feelings of being misled. It’s one thing to say payroll is gonna be low and we’re rebuilding. And it’s another thing to suggest differently and then not do it.

Idk a lot of it just feels like similar feelings you see with a politician who didn’t deliver on campaign promises. Like what do I care if they get re-elected or not.

Gson said:

I still maintain the team that has the best matching talent for the Guardians needs are the Dodgers..

Thoughts?...

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Sorry for delay, started a vacation. Dodgers won’t take Jose this year due to lineup already except for injury. Next year, Turner maybe gone so it frees up a bit of room. Just thought Bieber being Cali boy it matches well in LA with Bauer being Bauer.

Their farm appears always strong. Their OF/C is AA this year so won’t help until into 2023. For me, those are biggest needs for us plus the pitcher you always get and LA has it all. Angels farm looks a bit weak especially catcher. Tor, SD, NYM and LAD have those elite prospects and maybe desperate enough to give them up. Only other place to look for an up and coming Catcher is Oakland and Langeliers but they want him when trade theirs.

Herrera is last option for me ... bit better than ours but for Ramirez or Bauer, you go big or hold on. I still hope we sign one or both. I was excited to see reps sitting down w FO (thought it meant we were in neighborhood of parameters). Yet, I won’t get my hopes up. Less than 13 days to get our next indicator to path FO takes.

Steve_424 said:

Past attempts with Jose on #2 or past attempts in general with a 2nd extension for players? Not sure how much discussion there's been with him previously.

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Past attempts on #2 with anyone.

Success rate is nearly non-existent. They've had prelim talks, but the talks were never going to heat up until he reached his options years. These are the seasons where he should start seeing a significant raise, which is why Cleveland has leverage to get something done.

But leverage isn't closing the deal by itself.

Steve_424 said:

Past attempts with Jose on #2 or past attempts in general with a 2nd extension for players? Not sure how much discussion there's been with him previously.

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It would be 2nd contract in general. Cookie is only one that I can recall recently.

Mott the Hoople said:

So we just missed on some trades and FA's.
Let me ask this,,,
What the hell kind of organization goes into an unpopular re-brand like this?
How the hell can you negotiate a new lease and take money to redo Progressive Field and show appreciation like this?
How can we waste one of the final years of perhaps the finest modern manager in MLB.
The G's have a unique opportunity to win local fans due to the Browns deciding to float their boat with a sleeze bag QB.

They have to make a move to show people the are at least trying.
At this point, even a Swisher move would help.

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You think a smart front office is going to potentially hamstring its future maneuverability by swinging wildly and just doing something to do something for the sake of a re-brand and fan appeasement?

They had a plan, it didn't work, happens all the time in sports. They could and probably would potentially make it worse by just signing a "Swisher move" just to appease fans. That Swisher move, and Bourn move, cost them when they had dead money in 2016 and 2017 from taking on Chris Johnson (~28 million in total between his dead cap hit and the cash sent to Atlanta for Bourn and Swisher). Having an extra $10 to $18 million to play with while pushing to a World Series may have helped a bit.

Keep in mind, salary dump loopholes have been closed in the new CBA as well.

Good front offices don't operate that way, and contrary to how their own fans feel about them, Cleveland has a very good front office.

BimboColesHair said:

You think a smart front office is going to potentially hamstring its future maneuverability by swinging wildly and just doing something to do something for the sake of a re-brand and fan appeasement?

They had a plan, it didn't work, happens all the time in sports. They could and probably would potentially make it worse by just signing a "Swisher move" just to appease fans. That Swisher move, and Bourn move, cost them when they had dead money in 2016 from taking on Chris Johnson (~18 million in total between his dead cap hit and the cash sent to Atlanta for Bourn and Swisher). Having an extra $10 to $18 million to play with while pushing to a World Series may have helped a bit.

Good front offices don't operate that way, and contrary to how their own fans feel about them, Cleveland has a very good front office.

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What is the deal with Conforto? Seems a Correa-like deal would make some sense for him.

Steve_424 said:

What is the deal with Conforto? Seems a Correa-like deal would make some sense for him.

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2 words. Unvaccinated. Boras.

If the plan is to give the kids playing time...preparing for the future...and not blocking them with veterans, Zimmer should never get another at bat with this team.

If the future of our MIF is Gimenez, Arias, Rocchio, and Freeman...Chang shouldn't play another inning in the middle of the infield.

And if the two major targets were both left handed bats, why on earth aren't Miller and Chang taking reps in the outfield?

Assuming no major move is coming by opening day, several thoughts...

1) Epic fail on the part of the decision makers.

2) The FO was not able to adjust on the fly. Baseball is a game of constant adjustments. The FO can't, or wouldn't, adjust.

3) Every other team with an eye on moving up in the standings this year made a major move. Actions always speak louder than words. No action screams.

4) Any comments now about giving the kids time to develope as the reason for not making moves is merely blowing smoke. Its gonna be yet another year of tryouts. The difference between us and Pittsburgh/Baltimore is that they aren't wasting the last few years of JRam and Bieber.

Soon, this FO will be wasting the last few years of Franmil, Quantrill, Civale, and Plesac...using the same excuses.

BimboColesHair said:

You think a smart front office is going to potentially hamstring its future maneuverability by swinging wildly and just doing something to do something for the sake of a re-brand and fan appeasement?

They had a plan, it didn't work, happens all the time in sports. They could and probably would potentially make it worse by just signing a "Swisher move" just to appease fans. That Swisher move, and Bourn move, cost them when they had dead money in 2016 from taking on Chris Johnson (~18 million in total between his dead cap hit and the cash sent to Atlanta for Bourn and Swisher). Having an extra $10 to $18 million to play with while pushing to a World Series may have helped a bit.

Good front offices don't operate that way, and contrary to how their own fans feel about them, Cleveland has a very good front office.

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At least give us a few gotdamn pennant winning moves because right now Detroit is looking better.

22 teams are $90mil and above, Detroit is almost at $120, Minnesota is at $111, Cleveland looks to be bottom 5 at around $50.

I'll settle for a Hosey extension and Arias starting at 2nd come opening day.

This pitching staff is top 7 and we are essentially wasting it, at least in my view, and that sucks.

But nonetheless, I'm excited to hear the crack of the bat again.

If they don't get a Jose extension done attendance is going to be baaaaaaad. I know it was bad before, but I'm talking reallllllly bad. Embarrassing bad.

Real Deal said:

At least give us a few gotdamn pennant winning moves because right now Detroit is looking better.

22 teams are $90mil and above, Detroit is almost at $120, Minnesota is at $111, Cleveland looks to be bottom 5 at around $50.

I'll settle for a Hosey extension and Arias starting at 2nd come opening day.

This pitching staff is top 7 and we are essentially wasting it, at least in my view, and that sucks.

But nonetheless, I'm excited to hear the crack of the bat again.

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They'll get there. Not their fault their entire pitching staff, and one of the better in the league mind you, are all making the minimum or are in year 1 of arbitration, save for Shaw. Artificially keeps payroll way down when your starting 5, closer, setup man, and the rest of your bullpen combine to make like $18 million.

Obviously when that is the case you wish they'd take advantage of good cheap pitching and spend on something better than a league average offense though.

A few observations....

-I'm not sad the Winker deal fell through w/ the Reds wanting to sucker anyone into taking Eugenio as a penalty for getting a strict platoon guy...

-I'm sad the Braves decided to keep to their plan and NOT give the 6th year to Freddie.. making Matt Olson the Braves target for their 1B slot.. The return to the A's was substantial, but, the need for a 1B for both the Braves and the Guardians surpassed that cost.. easily..

-Second extensions are the last bite of the apple.. For a stud like Arod.. or Trout.. an expensive second bite.. (btw.. the second bite for Cookie.. had different motivations).. The second bite for Jose Ramirez is going to be very expensive, as well.. It's the cost of doing business.. Two chances in five, it gets done for jose, would be my guess or less than 50:50... Knowing what path JRam is going to take is the most his representation can provide with them being in Goodyear... Anything more would be either euphoric.. or very sad.. IDK which.. and neither does ANYONE else..

-Bieber can redeem his value from the "teres/shoulder/lat/trap" injury before an extension is considered, if it's ever considered, in spite of his proclamation that he wants to stay with cleveland for the rest of his career (something every guys says). We'll also get to see if "pre-tacked" baseballs are going to be permitted.. and the effect they have on the Bieb's pitches.. We'll also get to see the true effect of new revenue streams on payroll..

-Option/Roster crunches are going to be going on all over baseball.. this is a sad time and a glad time for the Guardians.. sad, because there will be guys who have been with the organization for years and years.. but will be told they will no longer be a member of the Cleveland organization.. Guys like Wil Benson and Brad Zimmer and Logan S Allen and several other.. It's a glad time because ALL the other teams will have a similar situation. There are teams that will be more willing to tack on a guy to keep his dream alive while trading a guy the Guardians see as being able to truly help now in deals.. Same with the Guardians. This will not include guys like Jo Adell or his ilk.. but it might include someone like _____________ (fill in the blank with a guy that hasn't gotten it done, but continues to have the potential to do so with a change of scenery making a huge effect. eg. Nick Senzel?)

In the interim.. some of the kids are showing they need to be seen.. & seen more in spring training first.. then who knows where.. AAA / first call ups .. We'll see..

BimboColesHair said:

They'll get there. Not their fault their entire pitching staff, and one of the better in the league mind you, are all making the minimum or are in year 1 of arbitration, save for Shaw. Artificially keeps payroll way down when your starting 5, closer, setup man, and the rest of your bullpen combine to make like $18 million.

Obviously when that is the case you wish they'd take advantage of good cheap pitching and spend on something better than a league average offense though.

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Really hoping Bradley doesn't crash and burn because 1B is production we desperately need to keep up. 1-4 is great as a whole.

And when you factor in Hedges, Zimmer, Mercado following after Bradley, things don't look so promising. But I'm here to let things play out, and wait patiently for some kids to get their shot eventually.

BimboColesHair said:

They'll get there. Not their fault their entire pitching staff, and one of the better in the league mind you, are all making the minimum or are in year 1 of arbitration, save for Shaw. Artificially keeps payroll way down when your starting 5, closer, setup man, and the rest of your bullpen combine to make like $18 million.

Obviously when that is the case you wish they'd take advantage of good cheap pitching and spend on something better than a league average offense though.

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And your earlier comment…they are an excellent FO. They’ve proven that. Which is what amazes me about them getting caught with their pants down so badly.

this is ‘sign falling off the gift shop bad’