Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

Derek said:

This is super insulting to Tony Parker, and ignores a ton of context. Not sure there’s a conversation worth having here if this is where your head is.

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Reads like someone who looked at the stats and didn’t watch him play. (I’d don’t mean you, Derek, but the guy you responded to).

kidduck said:

FWIW, a tidbit from a Bleacher Report article:

Chris Fedor of Cleveland.com dropped that report during an appearance on the Lowe Post Podcast (h/t Peter Dewey of Cavaliers Nation):

"There are multiple people inside the organization that if they have their choice between Caris and Collin, they would take Caris over Collin because of the size, because of the length, because of the versatility that he can bring on the defensive end of the floor. And they liked what they saw with Caris and Darius together. Obviously, the numbers back that up."

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Someone said about Lauri, the idea of what Lauri could be is romanticized and better than what he actually is. The idea of him is an absolute all-star if it came together.

I feel similar sentiments about Caris; he's good, but underwhelming most times, and you have to assume 50% availability rate. The idea of Caris is better than he actually is. Career Avg 33% from 3, needs the ball and drains the posession. There are going to be a LOT of clanks off the rim. Like a more inefficient Kobe-lite.

Collin, OTOH, on offense, is better than your idea of him. You think of him as an inefficient westbrook type ball hog, but he's actually remarkably efficient and doesn't waste time with the ball in his hands.

I get the specimen characteristics than Caris possesses, good height and length, plus avg D, and decent ball handling, but does it really make us better over a long stretch? It's a close call imo.

Zach Lowe reported in an ESPN+ article on Sunday that Collin Sexton wants a contract worth more than $20 million per year.​

Sexton is the most talented free agent remaining. However, with the Cavs coming off a season where they proved how good they are without him, they may not be willing to pay the price he’s asking for, especially since he’s coming off knee surgery. It appears that we may have to wait for the trade market to settle before teams decide they’re ready to present Sexton with an offer sheet. We’ll see what price is too much for Cleveland to pay.

I have to say, if Sexton really is personally insisting on $20 million (and it’s not posturing from Klutch) it changes my view of him as a person a bit. There’s some megalomania/narcissism/inability to deal with reality in that demand. Makes me wonder how he would do if he’s not the main star on a team - which he won’t be here

red. said:

Zach Lowe reported in an ESPN+ article on Sunday that Collin Sexton wants a contract worth more than $20 million per year.​

Sexton is the most talented free agent remaining. However, with the Cavs coming off a season where they proved how good they are without him, they may not be willing to pay the price he’s asking for, especially since he’s coming off knee surgery. It appears that we may have to wait for the trade market to settle before teams decide they’re ready to present Sexton with an offer sheet. We’ll see what price is too much for Cleveland to pay.

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I don’t think any team is going to give Collin that kind of contract or anything close to it. There just isn’t a market for him. He needs to either take or our offer sign the QO and make 2022-‘23 a prove it season.

cavsfever said:

I have to say, if Sexton really is personally insisting on $20 million (and it’s not posturing from Klutch) it changes my view of him as a person a bit. There’s some megalomania/narcissism/inability to deal with reality in that demand. Makes me wonder how he would do if he’s not the main star on a team - which he won’t be here

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It doesn't help that he has a Johnny-Football-like cult following on social media who still insists he's going to be a superstar and is worth a rookie max.

cavsfever said:

I have to say, if Sexton really is personally insisting on $20 million (and it’s not posturing from Klutch) it changes my view of him as a person a bit. There’s some megalomania/narcissism/inability to deal with reality in that demand. Makes me wonder how he would do if he’s not the main star on a team - which he won’t be here

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I don't think this is new information and is just posturing by Klutch. Zach Lowe just put out a podcast that Fedor was on, this most likely is just some stuff he heard from Fedor.

I also went back and listen to two interviews with Koby that Woj and Bobby Marks did. He brought up both times that one of the biggest things he learned from being a commerical real estate agent was that it's important to negotiate a deal where both sides are happy. He said one sided deals just leads to bad relationships then both sides won't want to deal with each other in the future. The example he gave was with trades and other teams but he then goes on to point out all the stuff they do as an organization to keep players and their families happy. They apparently have a family lounge that players families can all watch and interact with each other during games.

Yeah I have to think that this is Klutch who will say and do anything as part of their pushing for more $$$ for their players. This is the reason why agents and players are separate, so agents can say outrageous stuff and bluster at management and it doesn't have to affect the player's relationship with the team.

cavsfever said:

I have to say, if Sexton really is personally insisting on $20 million (and it’s not posturing from Klutch) it changes my view of him as a person a bit. There’s some megalomania/narcissism/inability to deal with reality in that demand. Makes me wonder how he would do if he’s not the main star on a team - which he won’t be here

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Absolutely ludicrous take. Now we've devolved into virtue signaling and (somehow less than) amateur psychology. You seriously believe that have a clue about who this guy is as a person?

This thread is complete shit right now. Not that this post makes it any better, but it certainly can't get much worse.

...
...sorry don't mind me. Rough week. Please carry on.

This forum is pretty enlightened when it comes to discussing basketball but for the casual fan, you look at Collin averaging 24.3 ppg on 47/37/81 splits and that is all you need to certify a player as worth 25m+. There is so much more going on beyond the basic boxscore but most people are not bothered to look at it.

There is a fair value deal for his skillset, probably a bit above where the market is currently putting it (12m on the market rn, vs 15m fair value). If Klutch think his market is closer to where Brunson's was, they severely misjudged.

foucault87 said:

This forum is pretty enlightened when it comes to discussing basketball but for the casual fan, you look at Collin averaging 24.3 ppg on 47/37/81 splits and that is all you need to certify a player as worth 25m+. There is so much more going on beyond the basic boxscore but most people are not bothered to look at it.

There is a fair value deal for his skillset, probably a bit above where the market is currently putting it (12m on the market rn, vs 15m fair value). If Klutch think his market is closer to where Brunson's was, they severely misjudged.

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Then you have Hollinger who uses stat analysis and puts Sexton’s value at $10.5 mil.

Maybe Sexton is being a jerk by asking for too much money, but I take it as competitiveness. He doesn’t want to lose at the salary game any more than he wants to lose at basketball.

And you got the Cavs who have picked their stars (Mobley, Garland, Allen) and want to keep the rest of the team on reasonable deals that allows for flexibility.

The Cavs are in the drivers seat, so Sexton at $12-$14mil for next season seems invevitable. It’s just going to take a while to get there while Sexton keeps putting out the “halo” salary requests.

Douglar said:

Then you have Hollinger who uses stat analysis and puts Sexton’s value at $10.5 mil.

Maybe Sexton is being a jerk by asking for too much money, but I take it as competitiveness. He doesn’t want to lose at the salary game any more than he wants to lose at basketball.

And you got the Cavs who have picked their stars (Mobley, Garland, Allen) and want to keep the rest of the team on reasonable deals that allows for flexibility.

The Cavs are in the drivers seat, so Sexton at $12-$14mil for next season seems invevitable. It’s just going to take a while to get there while Sexton keeps putting out the “halo” salary requests.

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In fairness to Hollinger, his analysis is designed in a way that favors things that Collin does not really excel at (high ast rates, high stl/blk rates) and downplays some of the things he is good at (midrange scoring mainly). Dont have the article in front of me, but I seem to remember him saying that Collin is likely worth a bit more than his algorithm suggests. Then again, this is also the guy who once traded two role players and a first round pick for Jon Leuer.

Derek said:

03-04 was also pretty close to when the league bottomed out in terms of pace and scoring efficiency.

Parker might have only averaged an extra assist per game, but per 100 possessions, he averaged 8.6 to Sexton’s career-high 6.1 (he’s a hair under 5 for his career). Parker would average somewhere between 9-12.4 each season over the course of the next decade.

That’s a pretty stark difference. Parker might not have been Steve Nash, but calling him “not a great playmaker” is just a lie.

ETA: Also, as bad as his scoring efficiency looks, that was league average in 03-04, same as Collin in 20-21, and the Spurs won 57 games.

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Ok, so per 100 poss important for assists but not scoring. Got it. Also these guys are incomparable. Got it. Also, if you do compare them they are scoring with similar efficiency for their era, so that makes Tony look good and Collin look bad. LMAO

Cavatt said:

Ok, so per 100 poss important for assists but not scoring. Got it.

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Never said that

Cavatt said:

Also these guys are incomparable. Got it.

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Correct, I don’t think they are comparable players

Cavatt said:

Also, if you do compare them they are scoring with similar efficiency for their era, so that makes Tony look good and Collin look bad. LMAO

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Never said that

foucault87 said:

In fairness to Hollinger, his analysis is designed in a way that favors things that Collin does not really excel at (high ast rates, high stl/blk rates) and downplays some of the things he is good at (midrange scoring mainly). Dont have the article in front of me, but I seem to remember him saying that Collin is likely worth a bit more than his algorithm suggests. Then again, this is also the guy who once traded two role players and a first round pick for Jon Leuer.

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Still one of the most ridiculous trades ever. I need someone to track down what that pick ended up becoming? Thinking it was one of those firsts that got traded for Korver but can't remember.