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The 2023-2024 Off-Season Thread

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RchfldCavRaised said:
@Rich

I see your point if we are ready to say Mobley at best will be a high post hub like Bam (no outside shot and using his guard like handle to triple threat and attack opposing defenses from free throw line in on half court, and bringing the ball up initiating off rebounds/transition)

I personally feel that would be a mismanagement of his development if that’s where his game settles.

Bams first two years in the league he was part of a 3 big platoon with Hassan Whiteside and Kelly Olynk. They all three averaged 23 mpg with Kelly O being the floor spacer with 4 3pt ApG at 36%.

That 3rd year when he took over those minutes from Whiteside and jumped to 34mpg, he had 3-4 floor spacing bigs next to him in Crowder 7 3apg at 44%, Olynk again, Myers Leonard and James Johnson all shooting more than 2 per game and 35%+ (Myers shot 41%!!!)

I think if you take Allen out of rotations with Mobley, you’re setting the bar for his offensive development to Bam at best.
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I don't think you can get Mobley to where you, @Rich , and many others want him to get in terms of development with this backcourt. Certainly not with this coach's reluctance to push the guards to involve him more earlier in the clock.
 
The Human Q-Tip said:
I don't think you can get Mobley to where you, @Rich , and many others want him to get in terms of development with this backcourt. Certainly not with this coach's reluctance to push the guards to involve him more earlier in the clock.
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Can’t make this up…

Conley spent 12 yrs in Memphis. His highest usage, highest scoring, highest 3pA, highest FTA all of those metrics and any other ones that basically signify individual perimeter player over reliance on PNR or isolation basketball

All happened during JBBs lone season as his head coach.

His offense was entirely based on Mike Conley half court brilliance and execution off HPNR with Gasol then Valunciunas.

No other season did he even come close on 3pA, FTA or 2pt FGA

It’s almost as if, he was the offense
 
RchfldCavRaised said:
@Rich

I see your point if we are ready to say Mobley at best will be a high post hub like Bam (no outside shot and using his guard like handle to triple threat and attack opposing defenses from free throw line in on half court, and bringing the ball up initiating off rebounds/transition)

I personally feel that would be a mismanagement of his development if that’s where his game settles.

Bams first two years in the league he was part of a 3 big platoon with Hassan Whiteside and Kelly Olynk. They all three averaged 23 mpg with Kelly O being the floor spacer with 4 3pt ApG at 36%.

That 3rd year when he took over those minutes from Whiteside and jumped to 34mpg, he had 3-4 floor spacing bigs next to him in Crowder 7 3apg at 44%, Olynk again, Myers Leonard and James Johnson all shooting more than 2 per game and 35%+ (Myers shot 41%!!!)

I think if you take Allen out of rotations with Mobley, you’re setting the bar for his offensive development to Bam at best.
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Mobley will have all the space in the world to develop offensively if Allen is removed. He is more talented offensively than Bam. Bam isn't the player he is offensively because he was stuck playing the 5. He just doesn't have the talent to do more than what he currently does--and that is no knock on Bam as he is a fantastic player. I want to give Mobley the Bam role, but that doesn't mean he couldn't expand his game more than Bam ever could.
 
Akron83 said:
Mobley will have all the space in the world to develop offensively if Allen is removed. He is more talented offensively than Bam. Bam isn't the player he is offensively because he was stuck playing the 5. He just doesn't have the talent to do more than what he currently does--and that is no knock on Bam as he is a fantastic player. I want to give Mobley the Bam role, but that doesn't mean he couldn't expand his game more than Bam ever could.
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I think the counterpoint is that we ALL want that role for Mobley, but Mobley needs to add an epic amount of weight and muscle to get there. It's not a "no" its just a "not yet" at least from my perspective.

By this time next year hopefully Mobley has filled out even more and will be fully ready to dominate in that role. I'm just very concerned that putting him there too early will have very negative results.
 
RchfldCavRaised said:
Can’t make this up…

Conley spent 12 yrs in Memphis. His highest usage, highest scoring, highest 3pA, highest FTA all of those metrics and any other ones that basically signify individual perimeter player over reliance on PNR or isolation basketball

All happened during JBBs lone season as his head coach.

His offense was entirely based on Mike Conley half court brilliance and execution off HPNR with Gasol then Valunciunas.

No other season did he even come close on 3pA, FTA or 2pt FGA

It’s almost as if, he was the offense
Click to expand...
A quick look at that roster 2018-2019 roster, the sheer number of injuries(highest number of players used in Nba history), Gasol being traded after 50 games, and almost no one besides Conley playing more than 50 games due to injuries is perhaps some necessary and valuable context to consider
 
MirORich said:
A quick look at that roster 2018-2019 roster, the sheer number of injuries(highest number of players used in Nba history), Gasol being traded after 50 games, and almost no one besides Conley playing more than 50 games due to injuries is perhaps some necessary and valuable context to consider
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I don’t think so.

They used 28 players and had Conley start 70 games right?

Joergers last season (that I referenced above) they had a 42-40 record with middle of the pack offense and efficiency that spread the ball around amongst 28 players just the same in a Grizz uniform, with 10 different players starting 10 games or more and another two starting 9.

IMG_8692.png
 
The Human Q-Tip said:
No you don't. You can always choose to run it back one more time and hope for a better result.
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You only trade Mitchell if he wants out, and says he won't re-sign. I definitely don't trade him if he won't commit, but is still keeping his options open to re-signing. I know that's a risk, but you got to take it, I don't see any other choice.

Because if you trade him, that's not good.... He is an all-star and is still young. It's all about what Mitchell dictates. I am hoping he will stay.
 
RchfldCavRaised said:
I don’t think so.

They used 28 players and had Conley start 70 games right?

Joergers last season (that I referenced above) they had a 42-40 record with middle of the pack offense and efficiency that spread the ball around amongst 28 players just the same in a Grizz uniform, with 10 different players starting 10 games or more and another two starting 9.

View attachment 15593
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The 2017-2018 Season JBB was an early season replacement when Fizdale got fired, meaning he took over without the benefit of hiring his own staff or running his own training camp in a league that at that time has more back to backs and rarely practices much beyond walk through a during the season. In addition, Conley got injured early and played just 12 games all year. Fizdale coached the full 2016-2017 season after replacing Joergers that offseason.

2018-2019 was his full season, and that is the one where Gasol was traded after 50 games, Jaren Jackson was a rookie and played 58 games and almost everyone else played 53 games or less. Bad roster, littered with injuries, it’s not a shock that Conley would have high usage and shot taking that year, if he did.

Which is the season you were showing as Conleys career high in usage, shot taking, ft making etc? I don’t think you’re wrong in that JBB is one of many coaches(some good, some average, some bad) who over-rely on their lead guards to create the majority of their offense off of in court reads, pick and rolls, their own whims, etc. but I think we should establish this Conley season you’re talking about before making it part of some larger argument(the discussion type, not the angry type)
 
MirORich said:
The 2017-2018 Season JBB was an early season replacement when Fizdale got fired, meaning he took over without the benefit of hiring his own staff or running his own training camp in a league that at that time has more back to backs and rarely practices much beyond walk through a during the season. In addition, Conley got injured early and played just 12 games all year. Fizdale coached the full 2016-2017 season after replacing Joergers that offseason.

2018-2019 was his full season, and that is the one where Gasol was traded after 50 games, Jaren Jackson was a rookie and played 58 games and almost everyone else played 53 games or less. Bad roster, littered with injuries, it’s not a shock that Conley would have high usage and shot taking that year, if he did.

Which is the season you were showing as Conleys career high in usage, shot taking, ft making etc? I don’t think you’re wrong in that JBB is one of many coaches(some good, some average, some bad) who over-rely on their lead guards to create the majority of their offense off of in court reads, pick and rolls, their own whims, etc. but I think we should establish this Conley season you’re talking about before making it part of some larger argument(the discussion type, not the angry type)
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Yeah, Miro... nothing you said here changed what those stats proved. This WAS his staff, he was associate head coach for Fizdale and Greg Buckner was in the chair right next to him. It's made worse by the same things bearing out here even though we are a much more talented team.

Actually, I'll offer more so you see how much worse his over reliance on HPNR and Iso play from the perimeter is.

You mentioned the 2017-2018 season right? In that season where JBB took over after Fizdale was fired 19 games in and Conley was lost for the season, JBB handed the ball to Tyreke Evans and gave him carte blanche over his offense. Tyreke Evans became the crutch for his lack of a half court offense.

Tyreke Evans, in his 10th season in the league, carried his unimaginative HPNR and Iso-heavy offense to a losing record with the highest USG of his entire career, including his rookie year when the Kings put the ball in his hands and allowed him to do whatever he wanted as a 19 yr old rookie in his ROY year.

Leading the team in PPG, APG and was only second to Marc Gasol in FGA

Tyreke-Evans-Stats-Height-Weight-Position-Draft-Status-and-more-Basketball-Reference-com.png

Tyreke-Evans-Stats-Height-Weight-Position-Draft-Status-and-more-Basketball-Reference-com.png


Dead last in FG's and FGA while being next to last in pace, but by golly, his defensive ratings were to die for as his slow pace and disregard for offense helped his defense rank first in opponents FGA and FG's, 2p FG's and 2p FGA's.

22-60 and only second to Phoenix for the worst record in the league.

Worst offense in the league, statistically one of the best defenses because of a gimmick committed to controlling pace by sacrificing his own offense.

Over and over again.

2017-18-Memphis-Grizzlies-Roster-and-Stats-Basketball-Reference-com.png
 

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RchfldCavRaised said:
Yeah, Miro... nothing you said here changed what those stats proved. This WAS his staff, he was associate head coach for Fizdale and Greg Buckner was in the chair right next to him. It's made worse by the same things bearing out here even though we are a much more talented team.

Actually, I'll offer more so you see how much worse his over reliance on HPNR and Iso play from the perimeter is.

You mentioned the 2017-2018 season right? In that season where JBB took over after Fizdale was fired 19 games in and Conley was lost for the season, JBB handed the ball to Tyreke Evans and gave him carte blanche over his offense. Tyreke Evans became the crutch for his lack of a half court offense.

Tyreke Evans, in his 10th season in the league, carried his unimaginative HPNR and Iso-heavy offense to a losing record with the highest USG of his entire career, including his rookie year when the Kings put the ball in his hands and allowed him to do whatever he wanted as a 19 yr old rookie in his ROY year.

Leading the team in PPG, APG and was only second to Marc Gasol in FGA

View attachment 15598

View attachment 15600


Dead last in FG's and FGA while being next to last in pace, but by golly, his defensive ratings were to die for as his slow pace and disregard for offense helped his defense rank first in opponents FGA and FG's, 2p FG's and 2p FGA's.

22-60 and only second to Phoenix for the worst record in the league.

Worst offense in the league, statistically one of the best defenses because of a gimmick committed to controlling pace by sacrificing his own offense.

Over and over again.

View attachment 15599
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All I asked at the end there was whether JBB was the head coach the year of Conley’s stats that you brought up in your OG post.

Wasn’t an attempt in a “gotcha” moment, wasn’t snark. It was asking to establish if the information you presented in your first post matched up with one of the years JBB was the head coach of the Grizzlies.

I then further acknowledged that JBB relies on his lead guards a ton to create offense on the floor vs a more motion centric, creative offense. Never debated that.
 
CanadaEh said:
I think there are a few bigs that could help to blend the pairing of JA/Mobley. Olynyk, Mo Wagner, Thomas Bryant, Zach Collins, Christian Wood, Dario Saric, Drew Eubanks. Names that aren’t flashy but come playoff time, could hopefully be able to play 20-25 with our starters and not miss a beat.

Maybe I’m optimistic but I think the Cavs could still deploy a Tall Ball lineup with these names for a 6 minute stretch just for another look. That was the issue with this years team - they had one lineup with 0 flexibility.
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I would love to have Mo, Saric, Wood (at a discount). I wanted Bamba at deadline.
Ideally the extra big can be someone who can split up Allen/Mobley lineups against teams that they struggle with like the Cavs sometimes did with Stevens and Wade. Only... actually be consistent.

Tower City was Lauri was a zag that worked. Now the Cavs have to find a way to bring that back. Alongside even more shooting. The LeBron 2.0 teams had an All Pipes lineup that they could throw at teams they were leagues better than.

Will be tough. But I'm not out on Mobley/Allen, when it's really only been here since Mobley has been here.
Allen himself was basically forced to be a PF until Drummond got the boot.

They will be better, especially Mobley.
 
Literally no one in the entire NBA is trying to do what we do. We start 2 defensively minded bigs who can't shoot a lick. Our guards have so much offensive talent but not much space to operate in, on top of that we have almost no consistent shooters. It just blows my mind that we are this damn stubborn to try and make something work that no one else is attempting. Any half decent coach can scheme a defense that will have no problem stopping us in the playoffs.

Everyone is talking about Mobley needing to develop his offensive game, and yes hopefully that happens, but where is JA's development? Dude is the same player offensively now as he was 4 years ago. He's still young, and considered a top C in the leaugue but he gets a pass? His shot looks decent but rarely attempts anything outside the paint. He should've already added a corner 3 ball to his game but i guess that is too much to expect from a guy who doesn't take the game seriously.
 
RchfldCavRaised said:
Yeah, Miro... nothing you said here changed what those stats proved. This WAS his staff, he was associate head coach for Fizdale and Greg Buckner was in the chair right next to him. It's made worse by the same things bearing out here even though we are a much more talented team.

Actually, I'll offer more so you see how much worse his over reliance on HPNR and Iso play from the perimeter is.

You mentioned the 2017-2018 season right? In that season where JBB took over after Fizdale was fired 19 games in and Conley was lost for the season, JBB handed the ball to Tyreke Evans and gave him carte blanche over his offense. Tyreke Evans became the crutch for his lack of a half court offense.

Tyreke Evans, in his 10th season in the league, carried his unimaginative HPNR and Iso-heavy offense to a losing record with the highest USG of his entire career, including his rookie year when the Kings put the ball in his hands and allowed him to do whatever he wanted as a 19 yr old rookie in his ROY year.

Leading the team in PPG, APG and was only second to Marc Gasol in FGA

View attachment 15598

View attachment 15600


Dead last in FG's and FGA while being next to last in pace, but by golly, his defensive ratings were to die for as his slow pace and disregard for offense helped his defense rank first in opponents FGA and FG's, 2p FG's and 2p FGA's.

22-60 and only second to Phoenix for the worst record in the league.

Worst offense in the league, statistically one of the best defenses because of a gimmick committed to controlling pace by sacrificing his own offense.

Over and over again.

View attachment 15599
Click to expand...

Yeow. Jesus Christ. It’s looking like it was dangerous to give this man Donovan Mitchell - he’s likely to interpret it as a “get out of having an offense free” card.
 
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