The 2023-2024 Off-Season Thread

[foucault87]

I want to comment on the Allen/Mobley thing. In general, zagging when everyone is zigging is not a bad thing. The important thing is to make sure you have flexibility in your roster and a coach willing to use that. The example that always stands out to me is GSW in 2015. They blitzed the league with the Barnes 4 Dray 5 lineups all year. Then they get to the finals and suddenly a Mozgod is destroying them. Kerr went to his bench and threw Speights and David Lee in there, who had barely played all year, and suddenly they are playing a more traditional 2 big lineup and matching the Cavs size. Obviously, no Love or Kyrie mattered, but I think that adjustment was also a very important change.

Point of all this is, I dont think we can just say "Allen/Mobley is a garbage frontline, we need to jettison Allen for the first mediocre 3nD wing we can get." I actually think what we should be doing is getting a strong 3rd big that can shoot a bit and slot at 4/5. That is, we dont need a Nic Batum who is a 3/4 pretending to be a small ball 4/5 but a true big man. There are 96 minutes available at 4/5. We know Allen is at his best in around 28-32 mpg. That is fine, we need to acknowledge that to maximize him which JBB's 4 man rotation failed to do during the playoffs. If Allen plays the maximum of those minutes and we pencil in 32-36 per game for Mobley split at 4 and 5, there are somewhere between 28 - 36 mpg for other players. If we give another 12 or so to a small ball 4 (Wade? Lamar?), we just need a third big to eat up the remaining 16-24 mpg. Suddenly, this seems very reasonable.

If we get a stable 3rd big man who can play those minutes and keep Allen in a range where his motor can be running the whole time and Mobley doesnt have to overextend himself, we will be well poised. This is exactly what Mil has been doing with the Giannis/Blopez/Portis trio. We already kind of do this with the guards where Levert gives us 28 mpg as a 1/2/3 when Garland and Mitchell need to rest (and can sometimes slot next to them at 3 for stretches). You need less depth for this in the frontcourt as you only need to really cover 2 positions and can get away with a lot of 1 big lineups. If we get that third body, I think our big guys will both look better than we have seen this year. This is why JBB's screw up with K Love makes me so mad. He would've been perfect for this like he was last year but this guy is so in over his head he might as well be coaching curling on a basketball court.

Couple good targets have been brought up. Saric and Eubanks seem like solid buy low options. I have always like Dario's game and I think as a passing/shooting big, he does a lot of what we want in that third big. I do wonder how he holds up post injury but that remains to be seen. Eubanks is a bit more low profile but also a good candidate. My personal favorite is Naz Reid who I think covers everything we would want.

 

[inliner311]

I want to comment on the Allen/Mobley thing. In general, zagging when everyone is zigging is not a bad thing. The important thing is to make sure you have flexibility in your roster and a coach willing to use that. The example that always stands out to me is GSW in 2015. They blitzed the league with the Barnes 4 Dray 5 lineups all year. Then they get to the finals and suddenly a Mozgod is destroying them. Kerr went to his bench and threw Speights and David Lee in there, who had barely played all year, and suddenly they are playing a more traditional 2 big lineup and matching the Cavs size. Obviously, no Love or Kyrie mattered, but I think that adjustment was also a very important change.

Point of all this is, I dont think we can just say "Allen/Mobley is a garbage frontline, we need to jettison Allen for the first mediocre 3nD wing we can get." I actually think what we should be doing is getting a strong 3rd big that can shoot a bit and slot at 4/5. That is, we dont need a Nic Batum who is a 3/4 pretending to be a small ball 4/5 but a true big man. There are 96 minutes available at 4/5. We know Allen is at his best in around 28-32 mpg. That is fine, we need to acknowledge that to maximize him which JBB's 4 man rotation failed to do during the playoffs. If Allen plays the maximum of those minutes and we pencil in 32-36 per game for Mobley split at 4 and 5, there are somewhere between 28 - 36 mpg for other players. If we give another 12 or so to a small ball 4 (Wade? Lamar?), we just need a third big to eat up the remaining 16-24 mpg. Suddenly, this seems very reasonable.

If we get a stable 3rd big man who can play those minutes and keep Allen in a range where his motor can be running the whole time and Mobley doesnt have to overextend himself, we will be well poised. This is exactly what Mil has been doing with the Giannis/Blopez/Portis trio. We already kind of do this with the guards where Levert gives us 28 mpg as a 1/2/3 when Garland and Mitchell need to rest (and can sometimes slot next to them at 3 for stretches). You need less depth for this in the frontcourt as you only need to really cover 2 positions and can get away with a lot of 1 big lineups. If we get that third body, I think our big guys will both look better than we have seen this year. This is why JBB's screw up with K Love makes me so mad. He would've been perfect for this like he was last year but this guy is so in over his head he might as well be coaching curling on a basketball court.

Couple good targets have been brought up. Saric and Eubanks seem like solid buy low options. I have always like Dario's game and I think as a passing/shooting big, he does a lot of what we want in that third big. I do wonder how he holds up post injury but that remains to be seen. Eubanks is a bit more low profile but also a good candidate. My personal favorite is Naz Reid who I think covers everything we would want.

I think before the Mitchell trade we were going in the right direction with zagging if everyone else was zigging. We had depth, assets, and everyone under a good contract. If you are going to zag, you should be able to build depth and get good value with the assets you give up. I think the Mitchell trade went against the zag mentality. While two small guards might be zagging, we paid up for Mitchell and gave up our depth in the process.

I'm not sure we have this same conversation of getting rid of Allen if we had assets to make other moves or we had depth. I believed in the triple towers being a potential zag. I would say two small guards and two non shooting bigs are less a zag and more not realizing the NBA has evolved away from that especially if you don't have the depth to take advantage of your zag.

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

I want to comment on the Allen/Mobley thing. In general, zagging when everyone is zigging is not a bad thing. The important thing is to make sure you have flexibility in your roster and a coach willing to use that. The example that always stands out to me is GSW in 2015. They blitzed the league with the Barnes 4 Dray 5 lineups all year. Then they get to the finals and suddenly a Mozgod is destroying them. Kerr went to his bench and threw Speights and David Lee in there, who had barely played all year, and suddenly they are playing a more traditional 2 big lineup and matching the Cavs size. Obviously, no Love or Kyrie mattered, but I think that adjustment was also a very important change.

Point of all this is, I dont think we can just say "Allen/Mobley is a garbage frontline, we need to jettison Allen for the first mediocre 3nD wing we can get." I actually think what we should be doing is getting a strong 3rd big that can shoot a bit and slot at 4/5. That is, we dont need a Nic Batum who is a 3/4 pretending to be a small ball 4/5 but a true big man. There are 96 minutes available at 4/5. We know Allen is at his best in around 28-32 mpg. That is fine, we need to acknowledge that to maximize him which JBB's 4 man rotation failed to do during the playoffs. If Allen plays the maximum of those minutes and we pencil in 32-36 per game for Mobley split at 4 and 5, there are somewhere between 28 - 36 mpg for other players. If we give another 12 or so to a small ball 4 (Wade? Lamar?), we just need a third big to eat up the remaining 16-24 mpg. Suddenly, this seems very reasonable.

If we get a stable 3rd big man who can play those minutes and keep Allen in a range where his motor can be running the whole time and Mobley doesnt have to overextend himself, we will be well poised. This is exactly what Mil has been doing with the Giannis/Blopez/Portis trio. We already kind of do this with the guards where Levert gives us 28 mpg as a 1/2/3 when Garland and Mitchell need to rest (and can sometimes slot next to them at 3 for stretches). You need less depth for this in the frontcourt as you only need to really cover 2 positions and can get away with a lot of 1 big lineups. If we get that third body, I think our big guys will both look better than we have seen this year. This is why JBB's screw up with K Love makes me so mad. He would've been perfect for this like he was last year but this guy is so in over his head he might as well be coaching curling on a basketball court.

Couple good targets have been brought up. Saric and Eubanks seem like solid buy low options. I have always like Dario's game and I think as a passing/shooting big, he does a lot of what we want in that third big. I do wonder how he holds up post injury but that remains to be seen. Eubanks is a bit more low profile but also a good candidate. My personal favorite is Naz Reid who I think covers everything we would want.

I like Allen, but I think the reality is on a deep, properly constructed team Allen is probably a 22-24 mpg player that we play 30+ mpg. I know you hint at that, but I think he should probably be playing even less than you say. He's the guy you start at the 5, is the first sub out for a shooting big or bigger wing, and rarely finishes games. This of course is how the aforementioned Warriors utilized Andrew Bogut.

The problem with using Milwaukee as an example is that Portis and Lopez can shoot the ball. Until Mobley or Allen develop a reliable jumper, it's likely there should be a deeper cut in Allen's minutes in favor of other shooting bigs or forwards. I say this knowing full-well it's not going to happen. The Bucks specifically built their front-court rotation around Giannis, and they complimented his inability to shoot the ball with two guys that can space the floor. The one thing they did extremely well is not sacrifice defense in the process, which is obviously very hard to do when looking to acquire floor-stretching bigs.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I like Allen, but I think the reality is on a deep, properly constructed team Allen is probably a 22-24 mpg player that we play 30+ mpg. I know you hint at that, but I think he should probably be playing even less than you say. He's the guy you start at the 5, is the first sub out for a shooting big or bigger wing, and rarely finishes games. This of course is how the aforementioned Warriors utilized Andrew Bogut.

The problem with using Milwaukee as an example is that Portis and Lopez can shoot the ball. Until Mobley develops a reliable jumper, it's likely there should be a deeper cut in Allen's minutes in favor of other shooting bigs or forwards. I say this knowing full-well it's not going to happen. The Bucks specifically built their front-court rotation around Giannis, and they complimented his inability to shoot the ball with two guys that can space the floor. The one thing they did extremely well is not sacrifice defense in the process, which is obviously very hard to do when looking to acquire floor-stretching bigs.

Bobby Portis didn't take and make threes until his third year in the NBA. Brook Lopez didn't take and make threes until he was 28 years old.

It's completely rational to believe Evan Mobley will develop his shooting range in an upcoming off-season, and perhaps this off-season.

What the Cavs miss most is Kevin Love and Lauri Markkanen from the 21/22 season. Give us some depth who can shoot from the forward spots to round out the rotation and Mobley/Allen is a beautiful front court pairing.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I like Allen, but I think the reality is on a deep, properly constructed team Allen is probably a 22-24 mpg player that we play 30+ mpg. I know you hint at that, but I think he should probably be playing even less than you say. He's the guy you start at the 5, is the first sub out for a shooting big or bigger wing, and rarely finishes games. This of course is how the aforementioned Warriors utilized Andrew Bogut.

The problem with using Milwaukee as an example is that Portis and Lopez can shoot the ball. Until Mobley or Allen develop a reliable jumper, it's likely there should be a deeper cut in Allen's minutes in favor of other shooting bigs or forwards. I say this knowing full-well it's not going to happen. The Bucks specifically built their front-court rotation around Giannis, and they complimented his inability to shoot the ball with two guys that can space the floor. The one thing they did extremely well is not sacrifice defense in the process, which is obviously very hard to do when looking to acquire floor-stretching bigs.

I agree on being more 20-24 mpg for Allen and looking at him more like Bogut. Last night I was watching how much of an impact Tristan made just by being a hard screen setter and playing as if he needed to make every one of those minutes count and I couldn't help but think back to Jarrett Allen's malaise and disconnected disposition which was more often what we saw throughout this season, and want to approach next season with him locked into 6 min spurts at most to get him back to playing with that house on fire as a versatile big approach.

Bobby Portis didn't take and make threes until his third year in the NBA. Brook Lopez didn't take and make threes until he was 28 years old.

It's completely rational to believe Evan Mobley will develop his shooting range in an upcoming off-season, and perhaps this off-season.

What the Cavs miss most is Kevin Love and Lauri Markkanen from the 21/22 season. Give us some depth who can shoot from the forward spots to round out the rotation and Mobley/Allen is a beautiful front court pairing.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

My dream 3rd big target Isaiah Stewart is proof positive that with a dedicated summer and a organizational commitment to developing that part of his game (even at the expense of a few regular season games early), we could see that breakthrough for him sooner than later and potentially as soon as this third year as some of these other bigs have exhibited.

Dwayne Casey is definitely not an offensive guru, but organizationally they made that commitment to developing that part of Beef Stews game after they lucked into Duren in the draft and Beef tripled his makes and quadrupled his attempts in his first season weaponizing that range.



You compare that with third year Grant Williams or Bobby Portis doing the same

Williams


Portis



I would say this is a pivotal summer for Mobley's development and potential to continue diversifying (read extending) his offensive game.

 

[foucault87]

I like Allen, but I think the reality is on a deep, properly constructed team Allen is probably a 22-24 mpg player that we play 30+ mpg. I know you hint at that, but I think he should probably be playing even less than you say. He's the guy you start at the 5, is the first sub out for a shooting big or bigger wing, and rarely finishes games. This of course is how the aforementioned Warriors utilized Andrew Bogut.

The problem with using Milwaukee as an example is that Portis and Lopez can shoot the ball. Until Mobley or Allen develop a reliable jumper, it's likely there should be a deeper cut in Allen's minutes in favor of other shooting bigs or forwards. I say this knowing full-well it's not going to happen. The Bucks specifically built their front-court rotation around Giannis, and they complimented his inability to shoot the ball with two guys that can space the floor. The one thing they did extremely well is not sacrifice defense in the process, which is obviously very hard to do when looking to acquire floor-stretching bigs.

I am not as pessimistic as you when it comes to Allen. I think he actually has a lot of offensive tools (passing, decent midrange J) that we don't see because it doesnt make sense with the JBB game plan. I also am not sure he is a 24 mpg guy at this stage in his career. I think he can be pushed to that 28-32 mpg range that a lot of similar skilled Cs (Ayton, Bam, JV) are at too. As is, I think we have other roster and coaching issues we need to resolve before we can worry about pinpointing exactly how many mins JA should be getting.

 

[foucault87]

I agree on being more 20-24 mpg for Allen and looking at him more like Bogut. Last night I was watching how much of an impact Tristan made just by being a hard screen setter and playing as if he needed to make every one of those minutes count and I couldn't help but think back to Jarrett Allen's malaise and disconnected disposition which was more often what we saw throughout this season, and want to approach next season with him locked into 6 min spurts at most to get him back to playing with that house on fire as a versatile big approach.

I was about to comment on this too right before you posted. JA shouldnt be out there for 8-10 minutes. I dont really think of him as a high motor player ala AV, but he can really make an impact when he has the energy. Its up to the coach to put him in a position to be energetic and impacting the game at critical moments, and we really did not see that this year

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

I was about to comment on this too right before you posted. JA shouldnt be out there for 8-10 minutes. I dont really think of him as a high motor player ala AV, but he can really make an impact when he has the energy. Its up to the coach to put him in a position to be energetic and impacting the game at critical moments, and we really did not see that this year

Herein lies the problem. I too believe Allen's best in 6 min spurts as @RchfldCavRaised said, but I think it gets pretty hard for a guy to consistently play 28-30 min only playing 6 min spurts. If we have this mythical third big and Mobley and Allen start the game, after Allen goes out the first time Mobley/Allen probably don’t share the floor much the rest of the game. It would just depend on if Allen was in the closing lineup.

 

[Lee]

I want to comment on the Allen/Mobley thing. In general, zagging when everyone is zigging is not a bad thing. The important thing is to make sure you have flexibility in your roster and a coach willing to use that. The example that always stands out to me is GSW in 2015. They blitzed the league with the Barnes 4 Dray 5 lineups all year. Then they get to the finals and suddenly a Mozgod is destroying them. Kerr went to his bench and threw Speights and David Lee in there, who had barely played all year, and suddenly they are playing a more traditional 2 big lineup and matching the Cavs size. Obviously, no Love or Kyrie mattered, but I think that adjustment was also a very important change.

Point of all this is, I dont think we can just say "Allen/Mobley is a garbage frontline, we need to jettison Allen for the first mediocre 3nD wing we can get." I actually think what we should be doing is getting a strong 3rd big that can shoot a bit and slot at 4/5. That is, we dont need a Nic Batum who is a 3/4 pretending to be a small ball 4/5 but a true big man. There are 96 minutes available at 4/5. We know Allen is at his best in around 28-32 mpg. That is fine, we need to acknowledge that to maximize him which JBB's 4 man rotation failed to do during the playoffs. If Allen plays the maximum of those minutes and we pencil in 32-36 per game for Mobley split at 4 and 5, there are somewhere between 28 - 36 mpg for other players. If we give another 12 or so to a small ball 4 (Wade? Lamar?), we just need a third big to eat up the remaining 16-24 mpg. Suddenly, this seems very reasonable.

If we get a stable 3rd big man who can play those minutes and keep Allen in a range where his motor can be running the whole time and Mobley doesnt have to overextend himself, we will be well poised. This is exactly what Mil has been doing with the Giannis/Blopez/Portis trio. We already kind of do this with the guards where Levert gives us 28 mpg as a 1/2/3 when Garland and Mitchell need to rest (and can sometimes slot next to them at 3 for stretches). You need less depth for this in the frontcourt as you only need to really cover 2 positions and can get away with a lot of 1 big lineups. If we get that third body, I think our big guys will both look better than we have seen this year. This is why JBB's screw up with K Love makes me so mad. He would've been perfect for this like he was last year but this guy is so in over his head he might as well be coaching curling on a basketball court.

Couple good targets have been brought up. Saric and Eubanks seem like solid buy low options. I have always like Dario's game and I think as a passing/shooting big, he does a lot of what we want in that third big. I do wonder how he holds up post injury but that remains to be seen. Eubanks is a bit more low profile but also a good candidate. My personal favorite is Naz Reid who I think covers everything we would want.

I think Saric might be a good option. He just came off a 3 year 27 mill contract where he might not have lived up to what Phx expected, but he should go for less than the MLE and can shoot close to 40% from 3 at 6'10 and is a PF.

Still need a SF, probably Royce is the number one option there. Royce can also play PF, not sure what it will take to get him. I agree playing Allen more than 28-30 minutes a game hurts us on several fronts.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I think Saric might be a good option. He just came off a 3 year 27 mill contract where he might not have lived up to what Phx expected, but he should go for less than the MLE and can shoot close to 40% from 3 at 6'10 and is a PF.

Still need a SF, probably Royce is the number one option there. Royce can also play PF, not sure what it will take to get him. I agree playing Allen more than 28-30 minutes a game hurts us on several fronts.

Important to note Saric blew his ACL in game one of the 2021 Finals and hasn't been the same since. The ceiling is intriguing but the floor would be low if he hasn't recovered fully.

 

[Lee]

Important to note Saric blew his ACL in game one of the 2021 Finals and hasn't been the same since. The ceiling is intriguing but the floor would be low if he hasn't recovered fully.

I forgot that...he is almost 30 too, another situation like Rubio? Maybe sign him for a Vet min or use the BLE to give him a 2 year deal and stash? Still need someone who is willing to shoot and play PF off the bench.

Eubanks doesnt interest me, he is not a willing shooter, we already have a better version of that in Wade who should be healthy to start the year.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I forgot that...he is almost 30 too, another situation like Rubio? Maybe sign him for a Vet min or use the BLE to give him a 2 year deal and stash? Still need someone who is willing to shoot and play PF off the bench.

Eubanks doesnt interest me, he is not a willing shooter, we already have a better version of that in Wade who should be healthy to start the year.

I'm going to be up front with you: We won't have much new Cavs news the next month so in it's place, I'm going to be myopic and hard-headed about adding Drew Eubanks as a low cost upside big.

Look at what this man can do:



Now did he play the Spurs - his former team and were they tanking at the time? Absolutely.

But we are talking about a player who spent four years playing on G League and 10 day contracts. In his first year with a guaranteed contract, he leapfrogged a series of drafted young players to earn minutes on the floor. That is a hungry 25 year old with fresh legs and money to earn. Is he gun shy? Maybe that's all in the past.

 

[TheISHT]

I thought Eubanks, when I saw him against the Cavs seemed like a physical athletic brute.

 

[Lee]

I'm going to be up front with you: We won't have much new Cavs news the next month so in it's place, I'm going to be myopic and hard-headed about adding Drew Eubanks as a low cost upside big.

Look at what this man can do:



Now did he play the Spurs - his former team and were they tanking at the time? Absolutely.

But we are talking about a player who spent four years playing on G League and 10 day contracts. In his first year with a guaranteed contract, he leapfrogged a series of drafted young players to earn minutes on the floor. That is a hungry 25 year old with fresh legs and money to earn. Is he gun shy? Maybe that's all in the past.

Just have a hard time with a guy being a shooter if he shot the ball .2 times from 3 in 20 minutes a game.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Just have a hard time with a guy being a shooter if he shot the ball .2 times from 3 in 20 minutes a game.

The Blazers were a nightmare team under Billups. The only point guard on the roster was Dame, and he's a shoot first guard. The one guy who moved the ball was Hart, who was traded to the Knicks.

While you are correct about small sample size, it's not hard to figure out why the small sample size exists.