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2020-21 Offseason Discussion

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jup said:
Wow, everyone here seems to be trading away pitchers.

Not quite sure if it is because there is a shortage of starters on the market, or if it is just Cleveland fans holding their pitchers in high esteem.

Cookie signed his contract at a significant discount so he could stay in Cleveland. Even though I understand the business side all to well, it still feels like a stab in the back from the org if they do trade him. But life moves on and so will Cookie if they do.
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Can't say I agree with the "stab in the back" comment. I say that because there would have been a no trade clause added. Otherwise, Cookie had to understand that it was/is a possibility. Especially considering recent history.

I'm not for trading SP unless there are a couple of good young arms added to the system. There is certainly no denying the risk when considering dealing a pitcher like Cookie though.
 
CDAV45 said:
Don't disagree with what you stated here jup. I just feel like they're stuck purgatory for the lack of a better description. They need to either deal guys like Lindor, Carrasco, and Ramirez and load up or keep all of them and add what they can. Since they appear to be in dire straits financially then I think the correct choice is clear. It's like they've half assed assembling the lineup because they bank on the pitching staff to do it all. In my eyes anyway, it's a recipe to do exactly what you said. Get to the playoffs and exit early. I f'n hate it!
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I sell them all CDAV. Including Biebs. Make some smart moves and set my eyes a few years down the road.

Those same bats that failed in every playoff run since '16 are still all the ones everyone wants to hold on to. And what the F... for - so we can watch Frankie and Jram go into the same old postseason slump. Not me, I'd move Frankie in a heart beat. I would have moved him last year.

This team isn't built to win, because pitching wins in the playoffs. And they don't have the type of top of the rotation arms to do that. They had the opportunity if they would have held on to some of their rotation riches. But they decided to trade them away. So don't diddle around playing like you are going to win when you know what you need to about Jram, and Frankie come playoff time. Move them, and when you do you clean off some more assets that will pack your system off into the future. And that means Biebs and Cookie. Because its fools gold thinking that the names thrown out there - McKenzie, Plesac, Civale etc are going to be enough to win it all without several more seeasons under their belts.

Its time to really break up the core of the last five years versus the drip and drab that has been going on. Be brave, be bold and blow it up.
 
jup said:
Wow, everyone here seems to be trading away pitchers.

Not quite sure if it is because there is a shortage of starters on the market, or if it is just Cleveland fans holding their pitchers in high esteem.

Cookie signed his contract at a significant discount so he could stay in Cleveland. Even though I understand the business side all to well, it still feels like a stab in the back from the org if they do trade him. But life moves on and so will Cookie if they do.
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Disagree with the stab in back comment. Cookie needs to remember how the team stood by him after his leukemia prognosis when the Tribe was on the hook for multimillions with no assurance he would ever pitch again.
 
jup said:
I sell them all CDAV. Including Biebs. Make some smart moves and set my eyes a few years down the road.

Those same bats that failed in every playoff run since '16 are still all the ones everyone wants to hold on to. And what the F... for - so we can watch Frankie and Jram go into the same old postseason slump. Not me, I'd move Frankie in a heart beat. I would have moved him last year.

This team isn't built to win, because pitching wins in the playoffs. And they don't have the type of top of the rotation arms to do that. They had the opportunity if they would have held on to some of their rotation riches. But they decided to trade them away. So don't diddle around playing like you are going to win when you know what you need to about Jram, and Frankie come playoff time. Move them, and when you do you clean off some more assets that will pack your system off into the future. And that means Biebs and Cookie. Because its fools gold thinking that the names thrown out there - McKenzie, Plesac, Civale etc are going to be enough to win it all without several more seasons under their belts.

Its time to really break up the core of the last five years versus the drip and drab that has been going on. Be brave, be bold and blow it up.
Click to expand...

That's a bit more aggressive than I could stomach. I'm looking at the talent, cost, and control in an attempt to get the pitching staff and the lineup synced. Bieber is going nowhere. The same can be said for just about any of the better young talent. What I'm sick of is trading one of the best players every f'n year. I think that's one of the biggest reasons the fans don't show, but I could be wrong. I'm sick of seeing the DeShields and Naquins and whoever else patrolled LF for the majority of the 2020 season in the lineup. I'd much rather watch a talented player like Waters, Marsh, or even our own Daniel Johnson find their way. They could stockpile talent by trading Lindor, Carrasco, and Ramirez. We know their trading Lindor. I give the chances of trading Carrasco about 65%. I doubt they trade Ramirez this offseason, but there will never be a better time IMO.

The core of the last 5 yrs is about gone. That basically consists of Lindor, Ramirez, Carrasco, and Perez. Everyone else has already been shipped out or walked away.
 
CDAV45 said:
That's a bit more aggressive than I could stomach. I'm looking at the talent, cost, and control in an attempt to get the pitching staff and the lineup synced. Bieber is going nowhere. The same can be said for just about any of the better young talent. What I'm sick of is trading one of the best players every f'n year. I think that's one of the biggest reasons the fans don't show, but I could be wrong. I'm sick of seeing the DeShields and Naquins and whoever else patrolled LF for the majority of the 2020 season in the lineup. I'd much rather watch a talented player like Waters, Marsh, or even our own Daniel Johnson find their way. They could stockpile talent by trading Lindor, Carrasco, and Ramirez. We know their trading Lindor. I give the chances of trading Carrasco about 65%. I doubt they trade Ramirez this offseason, but there will never be a better time IMO.

The core of the last 5 yrs is about gone. That basically consists of Lindor, Ramirez, Carrasco, and Perez. Everyone else has already been shipped out or walked away.
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Don’t forget Santana as part of the core on his way out.
 
The only problem with trading Ramirez is that we will be rebuild (not retool) for at least 2 years. I am usually in favor of that as I always say baseball is like poker and you have to save your chips for when you have a great hand. We just don’t have it right now. Enough to play and be exiting with hope. But, only to end up disappointed at the end.

With Sox and Twins having good teams, you may need to save some WAR in 2021 to spend it in 2023/24 when you can be competitive (right before Bieber leaves). The only problem for Indians is that they need to renew their TV contract in 2022 (I think) for 2023. Trading Cookie, Lindor and Ram will hurt the excitement level and thus TV viewership and ticket sales when we come out of COVID.

Yet, even if you get Lux, Gray and Ruiz for Ramirez (or Gray/Ruiz and Gonsolin plus some lower level guys in top-10 prospect list like Miller/Beeter to save on 40 man slots for now ), I would consider it. But, you are selling Bieber in a year as well unless you can get another year or two via long-term contract as mentor of staff.
 
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CDAV45 said:
That's a bit more aggressive than I could stomach. I'm looking at the talent, cost, and control in an attempt to get the pitching staff and the lineup synced. Bieber is going nowhere. The same can be said for just about any of the better young talent. What I'm sick of is trading one of the best players every f'n year. I think that's one of the biggest reasons the fans don't show, but I could be wrong. I'm sick of seeing the DeShields and Naquins and whoever else patrolled LF for the majority of the 2020 season in the lineup. I'd much rather watch a talented player like Waters, Marsh, or even our own Daniel Johnson find their way. They could stockpile talent by trading Lindor, Carrasco, and Ramirez. We know their trading Lindor. I give the chances of trading Carrasco about 65%. I doubt they trade Ramirez this offseason, but there will never be a better time IMO.

The core of the last 5 yrs is about gone. That basically consists of Lindor, Ramirez, Carrasco, and Perez. Everyone else has already been shipped out or walked away.
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i.m.h.o.

Cookie being traded = 10 %
JRam being traded = 65 %

Waves of talent win.. creating a wide and deep wave, possibly not for the uncertainty of the 2021 season, but certainly for the 2022 season and through the life of Bieber's contract is what trading these guys are all about.

Edit: and winning...

Thoughts?..
 
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jup said:
I sell them all CDAV. Including Biebs. Make some smart moves and set my eyes a few years down the road.

Those same bats that failed in every playoff run since '16 are still all the ones everyone wants to hold on to. And what the F... for - so we can watch Frankie and Jram go into the same old postseason slump. Not me, I'd move Frankie in a heart beat. I would have moved him last year.

This team isn't built to win, because pitching wins in the playoffs. And they don't have the type of top of the rotation arms to do that. They had the opportunity if they would have held on to some of their rotation riches. But they decided to trade them away. So don't diddle around playing like you are going to win when you know what you need to about Jram, and Frankie come playoff time. Move them, and when you do you clean off some more assets that will pack your system off into the future. And that means Biebs and Cookie. Because its fools gold thinking that the names thrown out there - McKenzie, Plesac, Civale etc are going to be enough to win it all without several more seeasons under their belts.

Its time to really break up the core of the last five years versus the drip and drab that has been going on. Be brave, be bold and blow it up.
Click to expand...
They traded kluber and Clev at the right time
 
xmasbuck said:
they traded kluber a year too late - and got virtually nothing for him
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I agree that the return for Kluber would have been much higher in the 2018-19 off-season, however, we won't fully know the return for Kluber until we see Clase pitch and whether Deshields sticks and plays better in 2021.

As for who's getting traded, I remain of the view that Lindor = 100%, Carrasco = 25%, and Ramirez = 0%.
 
daddywags said:
I agree that the return for Kluber would have been much higher in the 2018-19 off-season, however, we won't fully know the return for Kluber until we see Clase pitch and whether Deshields sticks and plays better in 2021.

As for who's getting traded, I remain of the view that Lindor = 100%, Carrasco = 25%, and Ramirez = 0%.
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I think at this point we know what we have in Deshields,,,I view Clase as a complete and total wildcard...could be great or could fizzle into nothing.
I guess it doesn't really matter because it looks like Kluber is done anyway.
I also believe the odds of trading Carrasco are at least 50 % range. The FO has to be dying to get that money off the books if they can.
 
I don't know. Deshields averaged 1.5 bWAR from 2017-19. Last season for us it was -0.2. He's only 28 years old, I think he can play better than what we saw this year.
 
Gson said:
i.m.h.o.

Cookie being traded = 10 %
JRam being traded = 65 %

Waves of talent win.. creating a wide and deep wave, possibly not for the uncertainty of the 2021 season, but certainly for the 2022 season and through the life of Bieber's contract is what trading these guys are all about.

Edit: and winning...

Thoughts?..
Click to expand...

You think there’s a 65% chance that Jose Ramirez gets traded???? I would be more than glad to place a friendly wager on that with you.
 
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