2020-21 Offseason Discussion

[sportscoach]

Agreed. If Lindor and Carrasco are traded it won't be in the same deal.



As of now, the depth would be Bieber, Plesac, Quantrill, McKenzie, Civale, Allen, Moss, Rodriguez, Hentges, Mejia before any additions from the trades. Don't get me wrong, there is certainly risk involved, but we're talking about a season where a lot of young players are gonna have to prove themselves. This retooling shouldn't be done by dealing a piece here, then dealing another next season for less of a return, and another the year after. That list I give is a pretty good list and it will likely get deeper during or after the 21 season when any of Hankins, Cantillo, Humphreys, or Oviedo get another year under their belts. There is also an almost certainty that a SP or 2 will be available on a cost effective 1 yr deal. The Indians have a pretty good record of those types of signings.

I am not worried about replacing Carrasco on paper and I know you are against the next thing I am gonna say, but with all the young guys coming up, I wanna keep a veteran like Carrasco around at the end of the day. We do need some veterans around who have experience and have been through a fair amount.

 

[CDAV45]

I am not worried about replacing Carrasco on paper and I know you are against the next thing I am gonna say, but with all the young guys coming up, I wanna keep a veteran like Carrasco around at the end of the day. We do need some veterans around who have experience and have been through a fair amount.

I think Bieber has pretty much taken over the veteran SP presence. He reminds me so much of Kluber, but is more open minded to new ideas and appears to be a better communicator IMO. Don't get me wrong, I love Cookie and so does everyone else, but this is about the overall health of the organization.

I'll give you this much. If Carrasco is dealt then I would absolutely keep Perez and Hedges around. I think Bebo will ultimately have more influence on young pitchers than Carrasco or any other pitcher on the roster. Basically all they have to do is throw what he asks for and where he asks for it. It's really that simple if they have the "stuff". I've long said that Gomes and Perez had as much to do with the SP success as anyone, and I still believe that to be true. Hedges is also known for his ability to call a game and provide excellent, GG caliber defense. The organization has shown that they can develop the kind of pitchers that can do what Perez asks them to. That is the key to the pitching development success IMO. It's also why they focus on defense and game calling at C.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

If the Indians are saying they can't afford Cookie AFTER trading Lindor it's time to sell. And this is coming from someone who supports the Dolans.

Join the club. Every fan has been saying for years how great it would be if some multi-billionaire like the guy in Detroit buys the team and is willing to lose tens of millions out of his pocket every year so we never have to trade a star player again.

Good luck with that.

As for trading Carrasco, if both Frankie and CC are traded there will almost surely be at least one major league ready starter coming back and maybe two. So you can add those names to the list.

The Indians watched guys like Allen, Moss, Hentges, Mejia and Rodriguez throw at Eastlake for a couple of months last summer. They worked with them on strength development, pitch development, holding runners - all that good stuff, I presume. They should have a pretty good idea of exactly where all these guys are developmentally and how close they are to pitching effectively in the bigs.

I'm sure they will trade Carrasco before spring training simply because they can't afford to take the risk that he gets hurt or sick and they're stuck with paying him $12 million. They traded Kluber in the off-season to make sure they didn't get stuck with paying him $18 million. They traded Clevinger in mid-season because if they didn't they would have had to trade him this off-season since he'd be unaffordable next year. Might as well trade him at the deadline and get more in return than waiting. It worked out great for them.

Better to trade a player too early than too late. It worked out that way for Bauer, too. After being traded to the Reds Bauer sucked the rest of the season, but then won the Cy Young this year after getting healthy. The Indians got more in exchange by trading him during the season and he ended up pitching bad for them instead of for us the rest of the year.

So in all three cases the Indians are relieved that they didn't wait any longer to pull the trigger. Imagine where they would be right now if they had decided to trade Bauer and Clevinger after the season, or if they decided to wait and trade Kluber at the deadline.

Cookie can nix any trade come May. He could hurt his arm in spring training or his health could take a turn for the worse. I think the experiences they had with the other three starters motivate them to trade Cookie for the first decent offer they get. It will probably be similar to what they got for Kluber or possibly more since Cookie pitched much better in 2020 than Kluber did in 2018 (5.80 ERA in seven starts). Also, Cookie makes less than Kluber and is locked up for three more years. It will be interesting to see what kind of package they can get.

 

[sportscoach]

I feel like there is too much of we have to trade Carrasco and at the end of the day, we dont have too. The FO knows we cannot probably contend for a wildcard if they just up and move Lindor, JRam and Carrasco. With Lindor leaving, they also have to figure out who the Captain will be as well so that's another question mark.

*Random note cause of boredom*
My current play through in OOTP, I am last in HR league wise, but first in hits, doubles, triples, SBs etc lol Ty Cobb would be proud of me! Running a small market team like the Indians, its hard to keep guys past their initial contracts. I end up keeping guys until they have a yearish left, then I trade them for prospects even when I am in contention just because of the fact, I know I cannot afford them next season. I won the World Series in 25 (go me!) But I had to trade my starter and catcher since they would have been 20 mil plus together price tag wise.

I've been running about 80 mil a season when it comes to player salaries, but I maxed out development, scouting, coaching etc in the game pretty much so I almost always lose guys in Rule 5/trade guys to get something for them. Its very hard to be loyal running a small market in baseball. I think its like 80-90 mil a season in the other areas.

 

[MadThinker88]

ICYMI..... via IndiansProspective twitter account

#Indians 21yr old RHP prospect Luis Oviedo looked good last night making his Venezuelan Winter League debut. Now healthy his fastball velocity is back up to 97-98 mph. - 2.0(IP) 1H 0R 0ER 0BB 2SO
------------------------

With flashbacks to the 2012 R5 draft (Chicago Cubs/ Hector Rondon)

.....& with the 1st pick of the R5 draft, the Pittsburgh Pirates select..

 

[sportscoach]

ICYMI..... via IndiansProspective twitter account

#Indians 21yr old RHP prospect Luis Oviedo looked good last night making his Venezuelan Winter League debut. Now healthy his fastball velocity is back up to 97-98 mph. - 2.0(IP) 1H 0R 0ER 0BB 2SO
------------------------

With flashbacks to the 2012 R5 draft (Chicago Cubs/ Hector Rondon)

.....& with the 1st pick of the R5 draft, the Pittsburgh Pirates select..

If we didn't have a million pitchers, then I would worry about losing him. Luckily we do have a lot of guys who are legit pitching prospects so if the Pirates or Orioles want to take him, then so be it. (Though I cannot go against the Orioles stealing from us again since they have done it multiple times)

 

[Gson]

If we didn't have a million pitchers, then I would worry about losing him. Luckily we do have a lot of guys who are legit pitching prospects so if the Pirates or Orioles want to take him, then so be it. (Though I cannot go against the Orioles stealing from us again since they have done it multiple times)

I lke detroit as the team that would love to grab Oviedo.. and keep him..

 

[Gson]

ICYMI..... via IndiansProspective twitter account

#Indians 21yr old RHP prospect Luis Oviedo looked good last night making his Venezuelan Winter League debut. Now healthy his fastball velocity is back up to 97-98 mph. - 2.0(IP) 1H 0R 0ER 0BB 2SO
------------------------

With flashbacks to the 2012 R5 draft (Chicago Cubs/ Hector Rondon)

.....& with the 1st pick of the R5 draft, the Pittsburgh Pirates select..

Joel Kuhnel... or Enyel De Los Santos?..

 

[petes999]

I lke detroit as the team that would love to grab Oviedo.. and keep him..

I thought that they would have protected Oviedo. I know this season has been a little crazy as teams can't see what has happened to players. Yet, Vargas got a spot over Oviedo and he hadn't even seen LC.

However, the good news for now is that Detroit is at the 40 limit (22 pitchers too). Looked around once I saw the tweet as well ... plenty of pitchers on MLB intriguing prospects available (few hit 100). So, hopefully Oviedo slips through like last year (2015 signee). Maybe easier to keep a Rule 5 on the roster early on (if expanded). But, that shouldn't last too long (hopefully).

 

[MadThinker88]

Just because some clubs are at 40 players at the moment doesn't mean the much.

Once we see the various contract tender/ non-tender decisions across the league next week, we will have a better idea if Pitts/ Detroit/ etc are in a position to make a R5 selection (or not)....

 

[CDAV45]

I said it before and I still believe it to be true. If it were up to me I would protect Oviedo before Morgan. If for no other reason than Morgan will eventually reach FA as a minor leaguer or be exposed the the rule V after the trades and get claimed then. Oviedo was one of our top SP prospects until he ran into some injuries. He can pitch out of a major league BP right now, especially for a team that doesn't intend to compete. Not protecting him is a mistake IMO.

 

[jup]

Wow, everyone here seems to be trading away pitchers.

Not quite sure if it is because there is a shortage of starters on the market, or if it is just Cleveland fans holding their pitchers in high esteem.

Cookie signed his contract at a significant discount so he could stay in Cleveland. Even though I understand the business side all to well, it still feels like a stab in the back from the org if they do trade him. But life moves on and so will Cookie if they do.

 

[jup]

I worry about trading Cookie, at least now.

Bieber and Plesac are sure things but after that? We have no idea what Civale will be. McKenzie has durability concerns. Plutko isn't a good option. Moss, Allen, and Rodriguez are unknowns at the ML level. Quantrill is too, at least as a starter.

Our strength could fall spart pretty quickly if you trade Cookie.

Gotta love this - no sure things when it comes to pitching. Don't hold your breath too long on this "sure thing", wouldn't be healthy given the rigors of pitching at the big league level

 

[jup]

Join the club. Every fan has been saying for years how great it would be if some multi-billionaire like the guy in Detroit buys the team and is willing to lose tens of millions out of his pocket every year so we never have to trade a star player again.

Good luck with that.

Better to trade a player too early than too late. It worked out that way for Bauer, too. After being traded to the Reds Bauer sucked the rest of the season, but then won the Cy Young this year after getting healthy. The Indians got more in exchange by trading him during the season and he ended up pitching bad for them instead of for us the rest of the year.

So in all three cases the Indians are relieved that they didn't wait any longer to pull the trigger. Imagine where they would be right now if they had decided to trade Bauer and Clevinger after the season, or if they decided to wait and trade Kluber at the deadline.

And you don't like the idea of Bauer and Biebs lining up together in the rotation this last year if they simply didn't trade Bauer ????

Would have made for an awful interesting playoff run with those two back to back. But when your whole gig is to just make the playoffs, versus winning it all, then you get a lot of "near misses" and that is Cleveland. A penny poor and a dollar short with a lot of talk about winning it all, but with the real goal of just making it in.

 

[CDAV45]

And you don't like the idea of Bauer and Biebs lining up together in the rotation this last year if they simply didn't trade Bauer ????

Would have made for an awful interesting playoff run with those two back to back. But when your whole gig is to just make the playoffs, versus winning it all, then you get a lot of "near misses" and that is Cleveland. A penny poor and a dollar short with a lot of talk about winning it all, but with the real goal of just making it in.

Don't disagree with what you stated here jup. I just feel like they're stuck purgatory for the lack of a better description. They need to either deal guys like Lindor, Carrasco, and Ramirez and load up or keep all of them and add what they can. Since they appear to be in dire straits financially then I think the correct choice is clear. It's like they've half assed assembling the lineup because they bank on the pitching staff to do it all. In my eyes anyway, it's a recipe to do exactly what you said. Get to the playoffs and exit early. I f'n hate it!