In today's game the focus is on the speedsters, though, and that's where guys like Rondo and Westbrook can make a difference. Of course it's hard to stay in front of your guy, if you just got stuck on a screen. One of the things Kyrie struggled with was getting through screens, but having the PG fight through a screen is kind of an archaic way to defend a P&R and a good way to get your PG hurt.
-
Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.
2012-2013 Hollinger player profiles are up
- Thread starter Douglar
- Start date
In today's game the focus is on the speedsters, though, and that's where guys like Rondo and Westbrook can make a difference. Of course it's hard to stay in front of your guy, if you just got stuck on a screen. One of the things Kyrie struggled with was getting through screens, but having the PG fight through a screen is kind of an archaic way to defend a P&R and a good way to get your PG hurt.
Pioneer10
Come home Sideshow Bob
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2005
- Messages
- 16,677
- Reaction score
- 16,703
- Points
- 123
How is it an archaic form to have a PG fight thru screens and how many PG's been hurt guarding the pick and roll? These seem more like assumptions to me then actual facts. The reason Billups and Kidd were very good defenders is that particularly when they were younger they had quick feet and were strong enough to fight thru screens
RCF seems to irrationally not like Rubio because posters want to stick up for Kyrie but speaking of the impact of a good defensive PG, the numbers were crazy. The Twolves went from being a decent defensive team to awful w/o him (11 more ppg allowed w/o him)
In their younger years, guards like Billups, Kidd, and E Snow would put their hand on the opposing guard and forcibly slow them down or direct them the way they wanted them to go. Since then the rules have changed and defensive approaches have evolved, and hence yes ... old methods have become archaic. Which is not to say it can't still be useful to have a guard that can fight through screens, but that doesn't mean every guard can or should be demanded to do it.
As for Rubio, I haven't made any claims about him. I haven't watched him or the TWolves play very much, and the defensive related stats can get easily polluted, but I can't find anything to support an alternate theory, so you may be on to something. If I cared, I'd go check what people who are knowledgeable about the TWolves are saying. Sometimes there's an "X-Factor" that a casual observer will miss.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2007
- Messages
- 14,523
- Reaction score
- 36,505
- Points
- 148
The Kyrie defense debate is lame...
Overlooked here is how Hollinger did an exact 360 on his analysis of Tristan Thompson and his game.
Overlooked here is how Hollinger did an exact 360 on his analysis of Tristan Thompson and his game.
Pioneer10
Come home Sideshow Bob
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2005
- Messages
- 16,677
- Reaction score
- 16,703
- Points
- 123
Just because you don't handcheck doesn't mean your pick and roll defense isn't helped by having a player who can fight thru a screen. Even in this day and age, defenses are night and day between having a guy willing to play good defense like fighting thru a screen (i.e. Delonte West vs Jeff McGinnis on recent Cavs teams). Now the idea that some players should not be demanded to do as much on one end is as old as the game itself and has nothing to do with the handcheck either. Even in the days of handcheck, teams let there star players definitely take a break on defense (even a fierce competitor like Kobe is often put on the Shane Battier's of the world to give them a break till the end of the game). I would agree in same vein of thought that some guys offensive abilities are so good they make up for the lack of defensive talent with a guy like Magic coming to mind.
Last edited:
foucault87
All-Star
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
- Messages
- 7,339
- Reaction score
- 9,756
- Points
- 113
Did Hollinger only analyze half the Cavs?
Magic Brownies
OH HI HO
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2008
- Messages
- 342
- Reaction score
- 161
- Points
- 43
dont sweat it. hollinger's predictions are almost always wrong. i mean, where are the rings he predicted we would have?
GuessWho said:
Mike Brown's defense made Mo Williams a viable PG, it would have done the same for McInnis ... but Paul Silas was a dinosaur. Byron is also a dinosaur, but at least he understands there's more than one way to defend.
Pioneer10
Come home Sideshow Bob
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2005
- Messages
- 16,677
- Reaction score
- 16,703
- Points
- 123
I think this just proves my point: Mike Brown's defense compensated for Mo Williams by having two freakish defenders in Lebron and West. When those two guys had to stick on there men ala Orlando series we saw the results (Lebron having to guard Rafer Alston was the ultimate embarrassment). Then we lost West and added Shaq. The Shaq/Mo Williams combo proved to be a defensive disaster again in the playoffs
We compensated for Mo by having our bigs (Andy and Z) show hard on the P&R to buy Mo time. LeBron guarded Alston not because Mo couldn't, but because we didn't consider his jump shot to be a threat and LeBron could cheat off him to help with Howard when Alston was off the ball.
The fact that LeBron and West were better defenders, didn't so much help Mo as put more pressure on him as anyone could see he was the weak link to be exploited.
The Shaq/Mo combo was a disaster because Shaq always stayed in or near the paint when defending the P&R and lacked the agility to defend a quick PG like Rondo when he attacked the paint.
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2008
- Messages
- 12,566
- Reaction score
- 27,189
- Points
- 135
So he ended up right back where he started? :chuckles:
The Oi
Ahhhh chachachacha
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2005
- Messages
- 50,908
- Reaction score
- 77,170
- Points
- 148
What did Jason Kidd have to say about it?
Pioneer10
Come home Sideshow Bob
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2005
- Messages
- 16,677
- Reaction score
- 16,703
- Points
- 123
They also did it because they needed to put Mo on the least threatening perimeter player who was Lee. It no coincedence both Lee and Alston had good series
This a reach: regardless of Lebron and West, teams knew Mo's weakness and would have tried expose him
As I noted before Shaq came in, that pairing him with Mo was a disaster. A healthy West as a PG and Shaq wouldn't have been exposed nearly as much. Goes both ways
Actually, we switched to using Parker on Rondo, and Mo on Allen, and that brought Rondo back down to normal.
The bottom line is that there's more than one way to get the job done, and yes, having more options is always better than having fewer ... but yelling at Mo to fight through screens and stay in front of his man wasn't going to change what he was. You have to be ready to cope with the hand you've been dealt.
MYoung23
12 Reasons to Post
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2006
- Messages
- 9,673
- Reaction score
- 20,844
- Points
- 135
The Big Easter Island Statue had the mobility of his nickname by the time he came to Cleveland. He and Maurice Williams were a pick-n-roll defense nightmare from day 1.
All this consternation over Kyrie Irving's defense... Did anyone really expect that a 19 year with 11 games of college after HS would be a competent individual defender in the NBA as a rookie? When you consider the rules regarding contact on the perimeter and the sheer number of PGs in the NBA who can light someone up on a given night I didnt expect anything from Irving as a rookie. John Hollinger just pointed out exactly how bad he was. Given Irving's physical ability and coachability he will get better but it will take time.
All this consternation over Kyrie Irving's defense... Did anyone really expect that a 19 year with 11 games of college after HS would be a competent individual defender in the NBA as a rookie? When you consider the rules regarding contact on the perimeter and the sheer number of PGs in the NBA who can light someone up on a given night I didnt expect anything from Irving as a rookie. John Hollinger just pointed out exactly how bad he was. Given Irving's physical ability and coachability he will get better but it will take time.