2020 NBA Draft

[cabs]

There is no way theyre trading Garland tomorrow, he is on the Cavs Draft party thing

 

[Cavatt]

That wasn't the point I was trying to make when I responded to you. You said how many guys above 6'3" are playmakers... I gave you a decent list. I'd even argue most of the best playmakers in the league right now are 6'5" or taller...

Sure, you can take it however you want. Draft a big PG. Draft a tiny PG. But again, we're in a point of evolution for the roles of players where the smallest guy on the team doesn't need to be the best passer anymore and taller players are focusing on their handling as well as their passing. I don't think pass first point guards aren't valuable, but you can't necessarily assume just because someone is tall that they can't play make, especially where we are now.

Well, I mean you seem to be arguing my point for me. Why draft someone small who can pass, when you can draft someone big who can?

It is interesting as many playmakers as you listed, very few are actually playing "lead guard".

LeBron, Jokic, Doncic, Simmons . Malcom Brogden, Lonzo Ball, ect. Then you got James Harden who is technically an SG. Jimmy Butler, Giannis, Booker, Joe Ingles.... Out of the top 30 assist leaders in the NBA, 13 of them are over 6'3". And quite a few point guards are listed at 6'3 but it looks like they're taller. Russell Westbrook for example. And you go out of the top 30, you're met with Bam, Murray, Sabonis, Kawhi, Smart. Even if you were to just use the position as opposed to the height, there are A LOT of quality passing players in other positions. Sure, you could say there are more legit playmakers as point guards vs players in each individual position. But outside of PGs we have more quality passing playmakers than ever before, and it's going to continue to grow. Much like every other career now, we're at a time when you're expected to do things that weren't expected 20 years ago.

Out of your list only 6-7(if you count Simmons) are lead ball handlers, and all those guys are pretty special right? Some people think Haliburton is a secondary playmaker, but Hayes is surely a lead guard, right?

 

[kookoo]

Well, I mean you seem to be arguing my point for me. Why draft someone small who can pass, when you can draft someone big who can?

It is interesting as many playmakers as you listed, very few are actually playing "lead guard".

LeBron, Jokic, Doncic, Simmons . Malcom Brogden, Lonzo Ball, ect. Then you got James Harden who is technically an SG. Jimmy Butler, Giannis, Booker, Joe Ingles.... Out of the top 30 assist leaders in the NBA, 13 of them are over 6'3". And quite a few point guards are listed at 6'3 but it looks like they're taller. Russell Westbrook for example. And you go out of the top 30, you're met with Bam, Murray, Sabonis, Kawhi, Smart. Even if you were to just use the position as opposed to the height, there are A LOT of quality passing players in other positions. Sure, you could say there are more legit playmakers as point guards vs players in each individual position. But outside of PGs we have more quality passing playmakers than ever before, and it's going to continue to grow. Much like every other career now, we're at a time when you're expected to do things that weren't expected 20 years ago.

Out of your list only 6-7(if you count Simmons) are lead ball handlers, and all those guys are pretty special right? Some people think Haliburton is a secondary playmaker, but Hayes is surely a lead guard, right?

I don't know if you were having an earlier conversation about lead guards or playmakers or whatever it was. I'm not trying to be combative either. I understand your general point. My response was literally just saying that there are a lot of larger players in the league who can pass the ball and create for other players.

If you're trying to argue anything except specifically height and passing ability within our specific conversation, you're wasting your time because I'm not against any other points. I'm assuming I missed a lot of what you were arguing about before I stuck my face into the conversation, haha.

I haven't watched enough of either Haliburton or Hayes to know whether one would be considered a lead or secondary playmaker. I'd trust your judgement of that.

Carry on.

 

[Ohioplayer00]

Andy Katz who strictly covers college basketball and knows the game inside and out says Obi going to the Cavs is GOLD for the Cavs organization! He said “we are be going to saying a lot of great things about this kid 3,4 and 5 years from now! He’s going to be a great NBA player”

 

[Cavatt]

I don't know if you were having an earlier conversation about lead guards or playmakers or whatever it was. I'm not trying to be combative either. I understand your general point. My response was literally just saying that there are a lot of larger players in the league who can pass the ball and create for other players.

If you're trying to argue anything except specifically height and passing ability within our specific conversation, you're wasting your time because I'm not against any other points. I'm assuming I missed a lot of what you were arguing about before I stuck my face into the conversation, haha.

I haven't watched enough of either Haliburton or Hayes to know whether one would be considered a lead or secondary playmaker. I'd trust your judgement of that.

Carry on.

Sorry if it came across as combative. Playmaking from any position is valuable. I like big pgs of course. They are great.

I also think some busts will be drafted before Hayes and Haliburton. I think Haliburton in particular could work with Collin and cover each others flaws

 

[wildfan]

wondering the thinking of the cavs on if the Porter situation affects their draft plans?
IE Would they now trade down with the Knicks and take Vassell at 8. 5 for 8 27 38

 

[sailfish]

Andy Katz who strictly covers college basketball and knows the game inside and out says Obi going to the Cavs is GOLD for the Cavs organization! He said “we are be going to saying a lot of great things about this kid 3,4 and 5 years from now! He’s going to be a great NBA player”

I think Toppin can be a 15-20 ppg scorer in the NBA and he’ll have some nice SC top 10 dunk highlights. I believe he’s always going to struggle defensively since he plays so high and doesn’t really bend or move well laterally.

Nothing against JB Bickerstaff, but since the Cavs are building a team that’s all about offense and doesn’t care much for defense, they ought to just hire Mike D’Antoni as their head coach.

 

[Smooth]

Can @Nathan S or @I'mWithDan speak to this at all?

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Can @Nathan S or @I'mWithDan speak to this at all?

Does that account exclusively to the Euroleague or what?
Avdija doesn't lack any aggressiveness. Low FTA could be a result of low amount of touches, low FT%..etc.

 

[I'mWithDan]

Can @Nathan S or @I'mWithDan speak to this at all?

I honestly think FTR is really over blown. And speaking specifically to European players, it honestly sounds like a bit of recency bias.

American players we have a much larger sample size on and it is a skill that can most certainly be learned at the NBA level.

Per 100 FTR

Jayson Tatum - 8.2
Paul George - 8.1
Kawhi Leonard - 7.8
Victor Oladipo - 7.6
Russell Westbrook - 6.9
Donovan Mitchell - 5.7

All of those players resided in the bottom 1/3rd of the database I keep, in terms of FTA per 100 possessions. All have gone on to be FT generators at the NBA level......and each, maybe save Russ and Vic, are different archetypes of player.

I just think whoever has this thought is really oversimplifying via a single stat. There are plenty of examples, including players of all types, who went on to be excellent attacking wings, who were below average in college. I wouldn't hesitate taking Deni based on this. I think his film shows a willingness to attack and strength to finish through contact.

 

[Nathan S]

Can @Nathan S or @I'mWithDan speak to this at all?

I think there's a lot of evidence that free throw rate is a key stat (though not the only key stat). Claims that it's particularly important for Euro player make no sense to me and are probably bullshit.

 

[sailfish]

I think there's a lot of evidence that free throw rate is a key stat (though not the only key stat). Claims that it's particularly important for Euro player make no sense to me and are probably bullshit.

Many, many Euros have failed in the NBA. Avidja is a player who doesn’t shoot that well and relies on his athleticism to succeed. In that way, he’s not all that different from Jan Vesely, Mario Hezonja, or our own Cedi Osman. He’s gonna have to adjust and become a more proficient shooter if he’s going to succeed in the NBA. He can’t just outrun & outjump guys like he did in the Euroleague.

 

[Nathan S]

Many, many Euros have failed in the NBA. Avidja is a player who doesn’t shoot that well and relies on his athleticism to succeed. In that way, he’s not all that different from Jan Vesely, Mario Hezonja, or our own Cedi Osman. He’s gonna have to adjust and become a more proficient shooter if he’s going to succeed in the NBA.

Same could be said for NCAA players, right? I don't see what the distinction is. High-level European basketball is more physical than NCAA ball, so you'd expect less of an adjustment for Deni if anything.

 

[sailfish]

Same could be said for NCAA players, right? I don't see what the distinction is. High-level European basketball is more physical than NCAA ball, so you'd expect less of an adjustment for Deni if anything.

The difference is this- there’s better athletes in America than Europe. There just are. So when you’re a player who relies on their athleticism, that can be an issue when you’re suddenly not one of the most athletic players on the court.

 

[Nathan S]

The difference is this- there’s better athletes in America than Europe. There just are. So when you’re a player who relies on their athleticism, that can be an issue when you’re suddenly not one of the most athletic players on the court.

In the NBA yeah, but certainly not in the NCAA. What do you think happens to Skyenga and all the other great athletes who can't quite make it in the NBA? They don't retire and become accountants...