2020 Off-Season Rumors/News

[Criznit]

low cost veteran..

Will be LOW COST.

We will not be signing anyone for a one year deal over 4 million unless its a multiyear deal which is extremely unlikely...

Is a return of Kipnis a possibility, especially if we spend any money we receive as part of a Lindor trade????

 

[Steve_424]

Free Agency = The Land of Diminishing Returns.. Highly doubtful with the Indians ownership structure they'll EVER be inclined to pursue free agents in general. A fill in.. or a stop gap or a nephew of a the owner might get some play.. but, otherwise.. there is nothing but high cost and sadness from that area of talent acquisition..

W/R to the names listed.. HARD PASS all all of them.. every single one..

If you're signing guys to long-term deals, paying for what they have done versus what they will do moving forward? Absolutely. But signing a no risk, high reward free agent to a minor league deal or for slightly higher? I'm on board, especially when the Indians have so many highly regarded prospects that are 1-2 years away.

 

[Gson]

If you're signing guys to long-term deals, paying for what they have done versus what they will do moving forward? Absolutely. But signing a no risk, high reward free agent to a minor league deal or for slightly higher? I'm on board, especially when the Indians have so many highly regarded prospects that are 1-2 years away.

oh.. no risk/what reward signings like:

Hanley Ramirez
Domingo Santana
Leonys Martin
Abraham Almonte
Melvin Upton Jr
Michael Martinez
Marlon Byrd
Collin Cowgill

...and these are the position players over the last few years. I won't even start with the pitchers that have been brought in.. taken time/innings in spring training and during the regular season. Most could double as arsonists... The number of these kinds of signings, and to some degree, the amount of money spent are mind boggling. It's been stated by many people on this and other forums.. these "..find lightening in a bottle.." signings would return the most if the Indians would put the money spent on these guys in a pile and light it on fire.. at least you'd get some warmth from it.. The continued reluctance of this organization to bring a talented prospect up before they're pushing against their minor league free agent wall.. only to see them walk away without know what they are or could be is an unexploited value a team with such limited resources can't continue to do..

The argument that these guys don't cost much... can't only be measured in dollars.. Example: Jesus Aguilar: wouldn't a .275/.350/.810 w/ 8 homers & 34 RBI's in 60 games @ $600K be a welcome & productive member of the Indians this coming year? The money spent on these post career hangers on and never were's amounts to quite a pile.. but, the casual fan base sees this as the Indians front office "..doing something to improve the team..." In reality, they're accomplishing just the opposite in most cases.. or... they've entered into the land of diminishing returns.. The newest shiniest pebble in the pond is still just a pebble.

Thoughts?

 

[Gson]

Huge stretch indeed, but it would be exciting to watch that particular group and what it could possibly do.....even if only in theory. There would be some serious thump in the lineup. It's fun to talk about, but the chances of it happening are remote.

The ridiculously deep rotation would get even deeper and possibly better. The additions of Gray, Gil, and Detmers would be outstanding. Gil and Detmers aren't quite ready, but slot up nice with Hankins, Cantillo, and Espino. If the Angels preferred one of Civale or McKenzie over Carrasco then I wouldn't let that hold up the deal. They could then deal Carrasco to someone else like the Phillies or the Braves.

I don't think they'll get that much in return for Lindor. I'd guess one of Florial or Andujar would have to be removed. Unless of course one of Perez/Hedges was sent with Lindor. Ultimately, I would be perfectly happy with Lindor and one of Perez/Hedges going to NY with Frazier, Andujar, and Gil coming back.

It would be a challenge to piece all that talent together because inevitably some will get squeezed out. The good news is that most of the new additions will have options. The OF alone would have Frazier, Mercado, Marsh, Naylor/Bauers, Johnson, Luplow, and a few games for Reyes. Bauers and Mercado would probably be on a short leash.

I'm not sure if Andujar and/or Jones can play a passable 3B. If they can't then 1) where do they play and 2) who plays 3B?

Given the unlikeliness of all three deals happening (although there would be no end to the excitement the media could generate about the club reset without touching their starting pitching or depth) any deficiency could be addressed with a trade of one of the acquired pitchers or someone from the current rotation (you mentioned the Braves or Phillies). I would suggest an overpay deal with the Pirates for Josh Bell and Ke'bryan Hayes, perhaps, a six for two type deal.

I would add Cantillo, Burns, Vargas and Torres to the "slot up group"...

 

[sportscoach]

oh.. no risk/what reward signings like:

Hanley Ramirez
Domingo Santana
Leonys Martin
Abraham Almonte
Melvin Upton Jr
Michael Martinez
Marlon Byrd
Collin Cowgill

...and these are the position players over the last few years. I won't even start with the pitchers that have been brought in.. taken time/innings in spring training and during the regular season. Most could double as arsonists... The number of these kinds of signings, and to some degree, the amount of money spent are mind boggling. It's been stated by many people on this and other forums.. these "..find lightening in a bottle.." signings would return the most if the Indians would put the money spent on these guys in a pile and light it on fire.. at least you'd get some warmth from it.. The continued reluctance of this organization to bring a talented prospect up before they're pushing against their minor league free agent wall.. only to see them walk away without know what they are or could be is an unexploited value a team with such limited resources can't continue to do..

The argument that these guys don't cost much... can't only be measured in dollars.. Example: Jesus Aguilar: wouldn't a .275/.350/.810 w/ 8 homers & 34 RBI's in 60 games @ $600K be a welcome & productive member of the Indians this coming year? The money spent on these post career hangers on and never were's amounts to quite a pile.. but, the casual fan base sees this as the Indians front office "..doing something to improve the team..." In reality, they're accomplishing just the opposite in most cases.. or... they've entered into the land of diminishing returns.. The newest shiniest pebble in the pond is still just a pebble.

Thoughts?

I love how you avoid Austin Jackson and some others who actually produced btw. My point is all teams do this and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. I mean Casey Blake was one of those guys and he ended up being Carlos Santana. We got Zach McAllister for one of them Austin Kearns I believe, etc. It may or may not work, but it has never hurt us in the end.

Also this season should have a lot of nontendered guys looking for playing time. Indians have a wild card shot with their pitching staff, looks a whole lot better to me than most of the teams that need the stopgap guys.

 

[Gson]

I love how you avoid Austin Jackson and some others who actually produced btw. My point is all teams do this and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. I mean Casey Blake was one of those guys and he ended up being Carlos Santana. We got Zach McAllister for one of them Austin Kearns I believe, etc. It may or may not work, but it has never hurt us in the end.

Also this season should have a lot of nontendered guys looking for playing time. Indians have a wild card shot with their pitching staff, looks a whole lot better to me than most of the teams that need the stopgap guys.

Guys are non-tendered for many different reasons.. but mostly, it's because they can't play.. I'm saying stop gap guys from promoted internal options is a better use of the limited resources this ownership group has.. For every $ 1.5 MM signing.. three guys from the minors could be tried..

The examples you've listed...sort of proves the point.. you have to go back a decada (Kearns) or two (Blake) to find a productive guy.. For the most part...they're just not worth the money spent

 

[sportscoach]

Guys are non-tendered for many different reasons.. but mostly, it's because they can't play.. I'm saying stop gap guys from promoted internal options is a better use of the limited resources this ownership group has.. For every $ 1.5 MM signing.. three guys from the minors could be tried..

The examples you've listed...sort of proves the point.. you have to go back a decada (Kearns) or two (Blake) to find a productive guy.. For the most part...they're just not worth the money spent

Austin Jackson was a huge person for us in 17 and honestly we would have been in trouble in 17 without him. Our OF was looking in bad shape. My point is, we will be able to find stop gap veterans that can produce. I want the best 25 out of spring in a sense and if its the young guys then so be it. I just dont wanna hand it to them and see what happens. They should still earn the spot regardless of potential. Most of the guys we are talking about only had ABs at the alternate sites, so I am not sure how game ready they stayed. We are in a transition year and with the fact we are retooling not rebuilding we need to have stopgap veterans to help guys into the pros. The most successful MLB players almost always had a veteran to help them get used to the pros. So I am not against bringing in an Uribe type for 2B/SS and if he fails then we let someone else take his spot from the young guys.

 

[MadThinker88]

Austin Jackson was a huge person for us in 16, and honestly we would have been in trouble in 16 without him. Our OF was looking in bad shape. My point is, we will be able to find stop gap veterans that can produce. I want the best 25 out of spring in a sense and if its the young guys then so be it. I just dont wanna hand it to them and see what happens. They should still earn the spot regardless of potential. Most of the guys we are talking about only had ABs at the alternate sites, so I am not sure how game ready they stayed. We are in a transition year and with the fact we are retooling not rebuilding we need to have stopgap veterans to help guys into the pros. The most successful MLB players almost always had a veteran to help them get used to the pros. So I am not against bringing in an Uribe type for 2B/SS and if he fails then we let someone else take his spot from the young guys.

Minor correction.... Austin Jackson was in 2017...
Rajai Davis was in 2016 (remember his homer in gm7 of the World Series)..

Marlon Byrd & Juan Uribe were also part of the 2016 team (although neither made it to post-season with the Tribe)..

 

[sportscoach]

Minor correction.... Austin Jackson was in 2017...
Rajai Davis was in 2016 (remember his homer in gm7 of the World Series)..

Marlon Byrd & Juan Uribe were also part of the 2016 team (although neither made it to post-season with the Tribe)..

Corrected..

You cannot say those guys haven't been important to this team over the years. I mean JRam still uses Davis's bat to this day. Not all work, but the Tribe always fills in gaps with low cost veterans until someone internally takes it from them. This off season will be no different.

 

[Gson]

Corrected..

You cannot say those guys haven't been important to this team over the years. I mean JRam still uses Davis's bat to this day. Not all work, but the Tribe always fills in gaps with low cost veterans until someone internally takes it from them. This off season will be no different.

A very different off season awaits/exist for the Indians and the fans.. very different indeed..

 

[Steve_424]

oh.. no risk/what reward signings like:

Hanley Ramirez
Domingo Santana
Leonys Martin
Abraham Almonte
Melvin Upton Jr
Michael Martinez
Marlon Byrd
Collin Cowgill

...and these are the position players over the last few years. I won't even start with the pitchers that have been brought in.. taken time/innings in spring training and during the regular season. Most could double as arsonists... The number of these kinds of signings, and to some degree, the amount of money spent are mind boggling. It's been stated by many people on this and other forums.. these "..find lightening in a bottle.." signings would return the most if the Indians would put the money spent on these guys in a pile and light it on fire.. at least you'd get some warmth from it.. The continued reluctance of this organization to bring a talented prospect up before they're pushing against their minor league free agent wall.. only to see them walk away without know what they are or could be is an unexploited value a team with such limited resources can't continue to do..

The argument that these guys don't cost much... can't only be measured in dollars.. Example: Jesus Aguilar: wouldn't a .275/.350/.810 w/ 8 homers & 34 RBI's in 60 games @ $600K be a welcome & productive member of the Indians this coming year? The money spent on these post career hangers on and never were's amounts to quite a pile.. but, the casual fan base sees this as the Indians front office "..doing something to improve the team..." In reality, they're accomplishing just the opposite in most cases.. or... they've entered into the land of diminishing returns.. The newest shiniest pebble in the pond is still just a pebble.

Thoughts?

Austin Jackson
Dan Otero
Tyler Clippard
Oliver Perez
Melky Cabrera
Rajai Davis
Ryan Raburn
Trot Nixon
Jason Giambi

All brought in as cheap stopgaps to fill a role that produced for the team at the time.

And the guys you listed? It cost the Indians next to nothing to give them an audition. Most on your list didn't get much of a shot before the Indians moved on (or didn't make the roster in the first place.

 

[Gson]

Austin Jackson
Dan Otero
Tyler Clippard
Oliver Perez
Melky Cabrera
Rajai Davis
Ryan Raburn
Trot Nixon
Jason Giambi

All brought in as cheap stopgaps to fill a role that produced for the team at the time.

And the guys you listed? It cost the Indians next to nothing to give them an audition. Most on your list didn't get much of a shot before the Indians moved on (or didn't make the roster in the first place.

It costs time prospects could be able to show their ability when the lights are the brightest.. There is no value higher in ALL of MLB...

 

[Steve_424]

Jason Kipnis is actually an interesting fit at 2B on a minor league deal. Small sample size of course but he hit RHP really well last year. I'd be down for a Kip/Chang platoon at 2B and if Chang takes off and earns a full-time role, even better.

 

[Steve_424]

It costs time prospects could be able to show their ability when the lights are the brightest.. There is no value higher in ALL of MLB...

If the Indians have a prospect they feel is ready for those bright lights they'll absolutely get a shot given the economics of the team. They know more about these guys than we do and see them day in, day out. Keep in mind most managers like some vets in the clubhouse too. I'd argue Giambi brought more value off the field than he did on it. That has more value than some AAAA guy.

 

[CDAV45]

Corrected..

You cannot say those guys haven't been important to this team over the years. I mean JRam still uses Davis's bat to this day. Not all work, but the Tribe always fills in gaps with low cost veterans until someone internally takes it from them. This off season will be no different.

You can safely say that most of them were not important. Besides, comparing then to now is apples and oranges in the sense that they either did not want to, or didn't have the resources to compile the amount of high end, ready prospects that they can now. For every Austin Jackson there are 20 others that were a waste of money. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with signings like Domingo Santana who have produced and are capable of putting up big seasons, but with the talent already in the system and the resources they have to trade(Lindor, Carrasco, Ramirez), a signing like Jackson is the last thing that's done to fill a hole that they couldn't or failed to address. You don't block a guy like Mercado or Johnson with a vet that struggles to produce 1 WAR IMO. In my eyes, the ideal situation is to have more than one prospect/player to compete for each available position. That's how I'd fill the roster when possible and take my chances with the young, unproven talent. Sure, if a bargain falls at your feet then by all means take advantage of it, but again, it better be someone that has produced recently and has upside. Domingo for instance, but if I have all of Frazier, Mercado, Luplow, Johnson, Bauers, Jones, and Naylor then there is no reason to sign Domingo unless it's a minor league deal.

The Indians historically play those that they have invested a fair amount of money in. Nick F'n Swisher and Dellucci come to mind. I can't think of a time when a well payed signing was unseated by a prospect.