2021 Draft Prospects Thread

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Out of the Rafters at the Q

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I appreciate Chris Simms's take. He's always open and honest about his QB rankings, and he goes off his own evaluation rather than the industry consensus.

That doesn't mean he's more likely to be correct--but I'd rather hear that than see someone copy and paste the default rankings.

I wonder if he'd still rank Wilson as highly if Mahomes never happened. To me, it feels like because Mahomes with his elite arm talent became the best QB in the NFL, we're trying to find the next Mahomes.

It's been 475 years and we're still looking for the next Tom Brady.
 

Cement

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Pick
21

Cleveland Browns
(via Colts)
TRADE

Zaven Collins

Tulsa · LB · Junior (RS)

Cleveland's defense is just a couple of pieces short of being a championship-level group. The Browns trade fourth- and fifth-round picks in 2021 for the privilege to move up for Collins, a versatile linebacker able to rush the passer, work in coverage and play the run. He could be special.



Pick
59

Cleveland Browns

Elijah Molden
Washington · CB · Senior



Pick
89

Cleveland Browns

D'Wayne Eskridge
Western Michigan · WR · Senior (RS)



Pick
91

Cleveland Browns

Cameron Sample
Tulane · DT · Senior



Pick
133

Cleveland Browns

Tommy Kraemer
Notre Dame · G · Senior (RS)
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

Out of the Rafters
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Pick
21

Cleveland Browns
(via Colts)
TRADE

Zaven Collins

Tulsa · LB · Junior (RS)

Cleveland's defense is just a couple of pieces short of being a championship-level group. The Browns trade fourth- and fifth-round picks in 2021 for the privilege to move up for Collins, a versatile linebacker able to rush the passer, work in coverage and play the run. He could be special.



Pick
59

Cleveland Browns

Elijah Molden
Washington · CB · Senior



Pick
89

Cleveland Browns

D'Wayne Eskridge
Western Michigan · WR · Senior (RS)



Pick
91

Cleveland Browns

Cameron Sample
Tulane · DT · Senior



Pick
133

Cleveland Browns

Tommy Kraemer
Notre Dame · G · Senior (RS)
If the first round played out that way, I would love the trade-up to 21... as long as it's to select JOK, not Collins.
 

blommen

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With how the front Office prioritizes LB you’d have to think the only reason they would trade up for either Collins or JOK is that they see either of them as more of a hybrid and Safety respectively, right?

Listening to the latest Draft Network podcast on LB rankings they made the case that this year is especially strong in terms of day 2 LB talent, something that you’d think would Play well into the Browns hands with how they value the position. The more I think about it, the more likely it seems that They’ll snag up an edge at 26 and wait for round 3/4 to bolster the Linebacker group.
 
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Out of the Rafters at the Q

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With how the front Office prioritizes LB you’d have to think the only reason they would trade up for either Collins or JOK is that they see either of them as more of a hybrid and Safety respectively, right?

Listening to the latest Draft Network podcast on LB rankings they made the case that this year is especially strong in terms of day 2 LB talent, something that you’d think would Play well into the Browns hands with how they value the position. The more I think about it, the more likely it seems that They’ll snag up an edge at 26 and wait for round 3/4 to bolster the Linebacker group.
So, I don't value the linebacker position as a premium position either. However, when I look at all the players in the bottom of the first round, I see JOK as the number one impact player that we could pick up. So, that's why I push for the move.

If we draft him, we play him at linebacker. We play him the same way Notre Dame did. You use him in coverage, whether on a tight end, a wide receiver, or in a zone. This allows your base to have someone who can be both a linebacker against the run, as well as a secondary player against the pass.

Honestly, while he doesn't have the athletic traits of Isaiah Simmons, he's already a better football player than Simmons ever was at Clemson.


We know what he can do in space, but the way he also attacks behind the line of scrimmage is special. He does more for me than Shazier or Peppers ever did, and I loved both those guys.
 

Man Called X

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You guys tell me the prospect you need the definitive word on, I'll take care of it.
 

blommen

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So, I don't value the linebacker position as a premium position either. However, when I look at all the players in the bottom of the first round, I see JOK as the number one impact player that we could pick up. So, that's why I push for the move.

If we draft him, we play him at linebacker. We play him the same way Notre Dame did. You use him in coverage, whether on a tight end, a wide receiver, or in a zone. This allows your base to have someone who can be both a linebacker against the run, as well as a secondary player against the pass.

Honestly, while he doesn't have the athletic traits of Isaiah Simmons, he's already a better football player than Simmons ever was at Clemson.


We know what he can do in space, but the way he also attacks behind the line of scrimmage is special. He does more for me than Shazier or Peppers ever did, and I loved both those guys.

Oh for sure, and I’m definitely not averse to taking JOK in the first round at all. I was more speaking to how the front office historically has valued the position in general.

The TDN folks brought up Jeremy Chinn as a similar player and as an example of how you should utilize JOK. They had him ranked two and three respectively for LB’s but also ranked him in the top 2-3 for safeties. With the premium our defense seems to put on strong DB play relative to more traditional LB play it would make sense for them to make an exception and take a swing on him.

I just wonder if They’ll divert the ressources needed to move up for him at the expense of staying put, picking up an edge and looking for good value at LB when day 2 rolls around
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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Oh for sure, and I’m definitely not averse to taking JOK in the first round at all. I was more speaking to how the front office historically has valued the position in general.

The TDN folks brought up Jeremy Chinn as a similar player and as an example of how you should utilize JOK. They had him ranked two and three respectively for LB’s but also ranked him in the top 2-3 for safeties. With the premium our defense seems to put on strong DB play relative to more traditional LB play it would make sense for them to make an exception and take a swing on him.

I just wonder if They’ll divert the ressources needed to move up for him at the expense of staying put, picking up an edge and looking for good value at LB when day 2 rolls around
I agree with you.

I'm attributing a lot of my own opinions to the front office, and the coaching staff. Because it makes sense to me and I feel it's the best approach, I assume that's the approach they'll take. But, I don't think any of us has any idea. @Randolphkeys might have the most familiarity with Joe Woods's defensive scheme, so might have the most insight.

If TDN rated Chinn and JOK similarly as both linebackers and safeties, then I think they're grading too much for a player's physical attributes, and not enough for what they do on the field. Watching Chinn's tape, I didn't think there was any reason to play him at linebacker. If he's already a tick slow in processing in the position he's comfortable with, and further away from the ball, why would you think he'd get better by taking him out of his familiar position, and bringing him closer to the ball?

It's the same with JOK. What makes him special is the way he can attack in the box. Whether it's making plays in the run game, blitzing the QB, or attacking the flats. The fact he can do all that at a high level, while still being able to man cover a receiver, is what makes him special. You line him up further off the ball, at safety, and you're losing those special qualities.

If you haven't watched it yet, I really recommend that Brett Kollman video. If you can't watch the whole thing, make sure you watch from 6:00 through 9:20. If you move JOK back to safety, you're losing all of those plays in the run game and around the line of scrimmage.*

*unless you're playing your safety up in the box, where a linebacker would typically be. And at this point, why are we even talking about position labels anyways?
 
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blommen

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I agree with you.

I'm attributing a lot of my own opinions onto the front office, and the coaching staff. Because it makes sense to me, and I feel it's the best approach, therefore I assume that's the approach they'll take. But, I don't think any of us has any idea. @Randolphkeys might have the most familiarity with Joe Woods's defensive scheme, so might have the most insight.

If TDN rated Chinn and JOK similarly as both linebackers and safeties, then I think they're grading too much for a player's physical attributes, and not enough for what they do on the field. Watching Chinn's tape, I didn't think there was any reason to play him at linebacker. If he's already a tick slow in processing in the position he's comfortable with, and further away from the ball, why would you thin he'd get better by taking him out of his familiar position, and bringing him closer to the ball?

It's the same with JOK. What makes him special is the way he can attack in the box. Whether it's making plays in the run game, blitzing the QB, or attacking the flats. The fact he can do all that at a high level, while still being able to man cover a receiver, is what makes him special. You line him up further off the ball, at safety, and you're losing those special qualities.

If you haven't watched it yet, I really recommend that Brett Kollman video. If you can't watch the whole thing, make sure you watch from 6:00 through 9:20. If you move JOK back to safety, you're losing all of those plays in the run game and around the line of scrimmage.*

*unless you're playing your safety up in the box, where a linebacker would typically be. And at this point, why are we even talking about position labels anyways?

I would recommend giving the episode a listen, I’m not really able to keep up with their analysis to the point where I feel like I can sufficiently argue their points entirely, but I do think the framework of Chinn and in a more abstract sense Jamal Adams with regards to role and position was interesting.

EDIT: also, the Kollmann video kicks ass, as they always do.
 

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So, I don't value the linebacker position as a premium position either. However, when I look at all the players in the bottom of the first round, I see JOK as the number one impact player that we could pick up. So, that's why I push for the move.

If we draft him, we play him at linebacker. We play him the same way Notre Dame did. You use him in coverage, whether on a tight end, a wide receiver, or in a zone. This allows your base to have someone who can be both a linebacker against the run, as well as a secondary player against the pass.

Honestly, while he doesn't have the athletic traits of Isaiah Simmons, he's already a better football player than Simmons ever was at Clemson.


We know what he can do in space, but the way he also attacks behind the line of scrimmage is special. He does more for me than Shazier or Peppers ever did, and I loved both those guys.
He reacts and closes so damn fast. Like you said about Simmons — what has his athleticism gotten him at this point in the league? How much can people really blame Arizona for his lack of production?
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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He's got JOK going 32 to Tampa.
Yeah. I checked the mock to make sure JOK wasn't gone before 21.

If he's on the board, I'm fine trading up to get him. I think he's that much of a difference maker.

I haven't watched any corners yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if I came away from this with JOK as my highest-rated defensive player in the draft.

The reason I don't value linebackers highly, and the reason they don't rate highly in most analytic models is because they do little in coverage or pass rush--and those are the two areas where analytic models say you can make a difference on defense.

Well, JOK can cover like nobody's business.
 

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Yeah. I checked the mock to make sure JOK wasn't gone before 21.

If he's on the board, I'm fine trading up to get him. I think he's that much of a difference maker.

I haven't watched any corners yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if I came away from this with JOK as my highest-rated defensive player in the draft.

The reason I don't value linebackers highly, and the reason they don't rate highly in most analytic models is because they do little in coverage or pass rush--and those are the two areas where analytic models say you can make a difference on defense.

Well, JOK can cover like nobody's business.
Absurd instincts.
 

Randolphkeys

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Somewhere in this thread a few people were anti-JOK because "I go long stretches of the game without noticing him."

I was president, vice president and ombudsman of the JOK fan club and mentioned he shuts down a whole side of the field until the offense just gives up.

I just don't think the Browns are going to have a shot at him. The mock drafts might think he goes in the 20s range, but I think he goes before #13.
 
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