2021 NBA Draft Safari

[ajz20]

Man, that would be a disaster

Disaster? Anthony Bennett is a disaster at one. If Cade develops into a regular all star and the team starts making playoff appearances, it is hard to say that would be anywhere close to a disaster. The reality is the franchise has a gigantic mountain to ever reach championship level ball in the next several decades
. Getting a team that is young, has a couple all stars ( Garland and Cade) that starts making playoff appearances would be a huge advancement. Cade may not be a generational talent but I think they could probably do much worse if all they are giving up is the 22 pick. The roster still has a long way to go, but a disaster is making moves such as inking Kevin love to a max contract in his 30s, when he no longer has the passion to play nba basketball.

 

[Derek]

Disaster? Anthony Bennett is a disaster at one. If Cade develops into a regular all star and the team starts making playoff appearances, it is hard to say that would be anywhere close to a disaster. The reality is the franchise has a gigantic mountain to ever reach championship level ball in the next several decades
. Getting a team that is young, has a couple all stars ( Garland and Cade) that starts making playoff appearances would be a huge advancement. Cade may not be a generational talent but I think they could probably do much worse if all they are giving up is the 22 pick. The roster still has a long way to go, but a disaster is making moves such as inking Kevin love to a max contract in his 30s, when he no longer has the passion to play nba basketball.

Given the circumstances, trading away anything of value to get Cunningham would be a disastrous decision. I'd be calling for Altman to be fired immediately. Would be his worst move as GM and he's been pretty terrible already. However good Cade turns out is irrelevant.

If Detroit really wants Mobley, they can take him at #1.

 

[ajz20]

Given the circumstances, trading away anything of value to get Cunningham would be a disastrous decision. I'd be calling for Altman to be fired immediately. Would be his worst move as GM and he's been pretty terrible already. However good Cade turns out is irrelevant.

If Detroit really wants Mobley, they can take him at #1.

Ok so if Cade falls to 3 then you don't think it's a disaster? Right now the Cavs are a bad basketball team with an owner that has a history of getting way too involved in basketball decisions, who does not value the position of general manager. To me getting a future all star ( hopefully) can't be viewed as a disaster. Yes I would much rather keep the 22 first. But to me, a disaster is Gilbert making basketball decisions such as extending Love, trading for Jarret Jack and Earl Clark in free agency. Those type of moves are a disaster because they lack any direction in roster building.
Altman could be fired just like that, but let's not pretend Dan has a history of doing proper GM searches, and that the next guy would not be a Gilbert puppet or be more qualified.
I dont think Cade is a perfect prospect by any means, but I think it is reasonable to say he could with good Health and hard work have a chance to become an all star wing, with pg skills. Yes I would like to keep the 22 first rounder, but Cade, Garland, Okoro Allen ( Sexton possible trade added assists) is not a horrible place to be in if you can add the rights vets via trade and mle free agents.

 

[Derek]

Ok so if Cade falls to 3 then you don't think it's a disaster? Right now the Cavs are a bad basketball team with an owner that has a history of getting way too involved in basketball decisions, who does not value the position of general manager. To me getting a future all star ( hopefully) can't be viewed as a disaster. Yes I would much rather keep the 22 first. But to me, a disaster is Gilbert making basketball decisions such as extending Love, and Earl Clark in free agency. Those type of moves are a disaster because they lack any direction in roster building.
Altman could be fired just like that, but let's not pretend Dan has a history of doing proper GM searches, and that the next guy would not be a Gilbert puppet or be more qualified.
I dont think Cade is a perfect prospect by any means, but I think it is reasonable to say he could with good Health and hard work have a chance to become an all star wing, with pg skills. Yes I would like to keep the 22 first rounder, but Cade, Garland, Okoro Allen ( Sexton possible trade added assists) is not a horrible place to be in if you can add the rights vets via trade and mle free agents.

If Cade falls to 3, not a disaster, just not my preferred choice. I'm still not sure what PG skills people think he has though. His only plus skill right now is shooting.

However, giving away a highly valued asset to get him while still allowing the others teams to get their player of choice would be an idiotic thing for Altman to do. A complete disaster scenario.

"Here's next year's pick, Detroit. Now go get the guy you wanted anyways."

 

[ajz20]

If Cade falls to 3, not a disaster, just not my preferred choice. I'm still not sure what PG skills people think he has though. His only plus skill right now is shooting.

However, giving away a highly valued asset to get him while still allowing the others teams to get their player of choice would be an idiotic thing for Altman to do. A complete disaster scenario.

"Here's next year's pick, Detroit. Now go get the guy you wanted anyways."

I think Det is going to take Cade but sadly I don't think getting rid of Altman is going to solve the problems I brought up with Gilbert. Honestly I don't think Altman has done a horrible job, but he has def made some big mistakes. We don't know much power he actually had in the Irving Trade ( I heard Dan was telling him things he could and could not do)
The drafting has been a mixed bag, although besides Windler no one looks like a bust. Garland was the right pick, and I think Okoro has a chance to be a very good glue guy on a good team. Allen was a good trade. Guys like Stevens are nice under the radar pickups. I guess my point is Altman is far from a great Gm, but I don't have confidence Dan would give up power to hire someone better.
Any result that ends up with the Cavs having a young core that starts producing winning records and playoff appearances to me is a success. What draft picks they give up to get there to me is not important. Disasters are teams like the sac kings who have been rebuilding forever and where there is no end in sight.

 

[Derek]

I think Det is going to take Cade but sadly I don't think getting rid of Altman is going to solve the problems I brought up with Gilbert. Honestly I don't think Altman has done a horrible job, but he has def made some big mistakes. We don't know much power he actually had in the Irving Trade ( I heard Dan was telling him things he could and could not do)
The drafting has been a mixed bag, although besides Windler no one looks like a bust. Garland was the right pick, and I think Okoro has a chance to be a very good glue guy on a good team. Allen was a good trade. Guys like Stevens are nice under the radar pickups. I guess my point is Altman is far from a great Gm, but I don't have confidence Dan would give up power to hire someone better.
Any result that ends up with the Cavs having a young core that starts producing winning records and playoff appearances to me is a success. What draft picks they give up to get there to me is not important. Disasters are teams like the sac kings who have been rebuilding forever and where there is no end in sight.

Trading away assets without the other team giving up anything is a sure fire way to end up like the Kings.

Altman has been a shitty GM, and if this is the best a GM can do under Gilbert, then we’re screwed regardless, I suppose.

 

[ajz20]

Trading away assets without the other team giving up anything is a sure fire way to end up like the Kings.

Altman has been a shitty GM, and if this is the best a GM can do under Gilbert, then we’re screwed regardless, I suppose.

You can only go by history with Dan. When is the last time he did a real GM search? Ferry? I don't think Det is trading away the pick so I don't think it is worth going down that scenario any further. I only hope that if there is a new GM, Gilbert has changed his approach due to his health scare/ better prospective on owning the team , or the realization that he can't be making basketball decisions on his own,

I originally thought it would take several rebuilds after Lebron lef to create a team that was playoff caliber and had a chance to advance past the first round. Despite some of the mistakes, I actually think this rebuild has a chance to work, I am not taking nba finals appearances ( that is just so unrealistic right now) but finishing above 500 with a young core that gives the casual fan a reason to watch.
If I am sitting in 2024 or 2025 watching an exciting playoff game with my kids for the first time, I am not going to care wether or not we traded our pick in 2022.

 

[Derek]

You can only go by history with Dan. When is the last time he did a real GM search? Ferry? I don't think Det is trading away the pick so I don't think it is worth going down that scenario any further. I only hope that if there is a new GM, Gilbert has changed his approach due to his health scare/ better prospective on owning the team , or the realization that he can't be making basketball decisions on his own,

I originally thought it would take several rebuilds after Lebron lef to create a team that was playoff caliber and had a chance to advance past the first round. Despite some of the mistakes, I actually think this rebuild has a chance to work, I am not taking nba finals appearances ( that is just so unrealistic right now) but finishing above 500 with a young core that gives the casual fan a reason to watch.
If I am sitting in 2024 or 2025 watching an exciting playoff game with my kids for the first time, I am not going to care wether or not we traded our pick in 2022.

You know how I know I’m right about trading up being a disastrous idea?

You haven’t actually tried to defend that as a good move

Everything you’re talking about is unrelated to what I’m saying.

 

[I'mWithDan]

I'd prefer someone who might be not as quite as dynamic of a scorer if they give you substantially more on defense and are a better passer.

True two-way wings cabale of guarding 1-4 are extraordinarily valuable.

You can’t win a title without an engine though. What team has won a title in the modern era without a truly dynamic offensive player?

Two way wings are certainly valuable but I want a Kobe Bryant type a lot more than I want Khris Middleton.

 

[ajz20]

You know how I know I’m right about trading up being a disastrous idea?

You haven’t actually tried to defend that as a good move

Everything you’re talking about is unrelated to what I’m saying.

I made my point that if the team becomes a team that regularly finishes above 500 with playoff appearances not having a first round pick for one year won't be that big of a deal. Obviously the player you trade for has to be a major reason your team is winning, but we won't know if it was a disaster on draft night or a brilliant move.
I can get myself excited about Green, Mobley or Cade. I would rather not lose a future one, but again we won't know if the decision is great bad or indifferent until several years into the future.

 

[Derek]

I made my point that if the team becomes a team that regularly finishes above 500 with playoff appearances not having a first round pick for one year won't be that big of a deal. Obviously the player you trade for has to be a major reason your team is winning, but we won't know if it was a disaster on draft night or a brilliant move.
I can get myself excited about Green, Mobley or Cade. I would rather not lose a future one, but again we won't know if the decision is great bad or indifferent until several years into the future.

Sounds like you're just arguing that sometimes bad decisions turn out ok, which I don't disagree with.

Still, it doesn't make the decision any better.

I could go spend my paycheck on lottery tickets, and maybe I win big, but that doesn't mean it was a good decision.

 

[I'mWithDan]

So his main appeal is being a scorer? Scoring is important but if he is average at everything else and an elite scorer, you aren't winning much with that. See Melo, AI, Lavine, Gervin and any number of other examples. I do like that skillset in a player but I don't see why I take Green over Cade or even Sengun if thats what I am looking for. How is his passing and defense?

Calling him “average at everything else” seems like a stretch to me.

The appeal with Green IMO, when you watch his tape, is he has all the tools to be a good all around player. Couple that with his work ethic and you would imagine he will be at the end of the day.

Green shows flashes on defense that he can guard at a high level. He’s opportunistic and certainly more so help side, where you will see him jump passing lanes or poke balls away on defenders that lose site of him. It is more coaching it in to him to me. He does it enough to think he can develop and his all around game more resembles someone like Beal, even against pro competition. Beal was a better rebounder in college but everything else looks a lot the same. Solid scorer, better than advertised passer for a "scorer", produces defensive stats, efficiently scores for a wing.

When you consider the production against pros, relative to Green's age and looking at how explosive he is as an athlete, I just think his ceiling is exceptionally high.

 

[ajz20]

Sounds like you're just arguing that sometimes bad decisions turn out ok, which I don't disagree with.

Still, it doesn't make the decision any better.

I could go spend my paycheck on lottery tickets, and maybe I win big, but that doesn't mean it was a good decision.

But if the player who you trade for becomes a vital part of your organization and you finish at or above 500, does losing a pick in the teens for one year really hurt you that much? Now if the player at 3 you passed on ends up better then it was def a bad move.
But disaster to me is coming away empty handed by getting an Anthony Bennett. It would really depend on what type career Cade had with the Cavaliers. What if trading for Cade produced a better long term outcome then selecting Mobley at 3 and keeping the pick in 22?
Or what about this what if you trade up and select Green at one to jump Houston ? Again we would not know if it was good bad or upside down until the careers played out.

 

[Derek]

But if the player who you trade for becomes a vital part of your organization and you finish at or above 500, does losing a pick in the teens for one year really hurt you that much? Now if the player at 3 you passed on ends up better then it was def a bad move.
But disaster to me is coming away empty handed by getting an Anthony Bennett. It would really depend on what type career Cade had with the Cavaliers. What if trading for Cade produced a better long term outcome then selecting Mobley at 3 and keeping the pick in 22?
Or what about this what if you trade up and select Green at one to jump Houston ? Again we would not know if it was good bad or upside down until the careers played out.

You seem to value results over process. So, I'm just going to chalk this up as a case of us having different values.

As I said, spending my whole paycheck on lotto tickets is a bad decision regardless of whether or not I hit on one of the tickets.

 

[ajz20]

You seem to value results over process. So, I'm just going to chalk this up as a case of us having different values.

As I said, spending my whole paycheck on lotto tickets is a bad decision regardless of whether or not I hit on one of the tickets.

Well yes results matter one hundred percent.we celebrate the title even though the process had many mistakes along the way. I don't see trading for one as the same as buying lottery tickets blindly. I think it is a risk yes. But disaster? You won't know for years.