23 Offseason GM Thread

[Criznit]

If Cleveland starts the season with Bieber they will finish the season with Bieber...

If everything goes wrong and Bieber is healthy/producing... Unless an extension is signed this off-season, Bieber is certainly on the trade block. Doesn't mean we will trade him, but we'll be more than just listening.

EDIT for @sportscoach - Apparently "If everything goes wrong" wasn't clear enough.. If we are out of the playoff chase at the deadline... Better? Let me know if you need anything else...

 

[sportscoach]

If everything goes wrong and Bieber is healthy/producing... Unless an extension is signed this off-season, Bieber is certainly on the trade block. Doesn't mean we will trade him, but we'll be more than just listening.

I'm sure they already have a good idea of offers that they could get right now. When Antonetti said he was going to be in Cleveland, that told me, he's not going anywhere this season, regardless of signing an extension or not... if he gets dealt it will be before the 24 season starts. With so many arms ready and likely another veteran SP around, I think we can afford to move him then. Why trade Bieber mid season when we are trying to win it... It sends the wrong message to the team. You can get away with trading Bauer and Clevinger since they had some issues at times. Bieber doesn't have that and he is the leader and Ace of the starters. You cannot trade him mid season and expect smooth sailing if you are trying to compete. He's going to be in Cleveland for all of 23 as long as Antonetti and Francona feel the Guardians are in the playoffs.

 

[sportscoach]

No

You said the same thing about JRam getting an extension... Bieber is staying in Cleveland for 23, honestly any response is the noise from Charlie brown since I am not changing my mind and won't argue back either about this lol

 

[CATS44]

The FO does set a price point and usually...and famously...sticks to it. But they aren't dummies. If their price point is proven to be out of whack with reality and the situation, they adjust accordingly.

The original price point on Kluber was certainly higher than a fourth outfielder and a prospective reliever. And I have a hunch that the price point 12 months ago for Jones was a lot higher than a A ball prospect near the bottom of the Rox list.

I also imagine that the fallen value of Jones, our former top prospect and top 100 for several years, has been duly noted...even if it didn't register for Zimmer, Chang, Bradley, et al.

If the FO doesn't land Murphy, those prospects it didn't trade will likely be worth a lot less next year.

For those of you who follow BTV, look at what has happened to so many of our prospects once they spend multiple years at the top of prospect lists and spend significant time in AAA.

Jones, Arias, Rocchio, and Freeman were all valued in the 19 (Jones) to 23 (the others) range a year ago. Check them out now. And their clocks keep ticking.

 

[CDAV45]

I'm sure they already have a good idea of offers that they could get right now. When Antonetti said he was going to be in Cleveland, that told me, he's not going anywhere this season, regardless of signing an extension or not... if he gets dealt it will be before the 24 season starts. With so many arms ready and likely another veteran SP around, I think we can afford to move him then. Why trade Bieber mid season when we are trying to win it... It sends the wrong message to the team. You can get away with trading Bauer and Clevinger since they had some issues at times. Bieber doesn't have that and he is the leader and Ace of the starters. You cannot trade him mid season and expect smooth sailing if you are trying to compete. He's going to be in Cleveland for all of 23 as long as Antonetti and Francona feel the Guardians are in the playoffs.

This is nothing but BS. What was going to happen to JRam if he didn't take his offer? MFer was a goner. How can they even contemplate such a thing?

 

[Gson]

This is nothing but BS. What was going to happen to JRam if he didn't take his offer? MFer was a goner. How can they even contemplate such a thing?

Simply stated.. spewing BS by digging in heels makes discussion moot.. People who are unable to discuss more than their own narrow minded unrealistic points of view.. lose every argument.. and then, with ego fully in view, lie about not further discussing any subject.. sort of sad..

@CDAV45 Correct on JRam.. How many times was the comment added to any posting on any sight.. "...if an extension cannot be arranged..."

BIG F^CKIN OOOOOPS..

Guess what.. an extension was worked out.. making every comment correct and making the latest "never gonna happen and you can't change what's left of my mind" discussion moot save for the re-writing of history (read: LIE).. like with JRam.. smh..

 

[Gson]

Seems like every comment or suggested trade being bandied about on one of several websites from anyone other that knowledgeable A's fans and Guardians' fans have at least two, and some three of Valera, Williams, and Rocchio included in the deal. Some add Quantrill or McKenzie or Clase.. To their credit, very few mention Bo Naylor.. ever fewer mention Daniel Espino..

Notable are the insightful A's fans who have seen their club trade for years.. They have evidence of "..the quantity over quality deals for long term controlled prospects.." as their clear and overriding M.O.. While history tends to repeat itself, especially when the lessons learned are ignored.. the A's current situation is eerily similar to their last rebuild where they acquired more than a half dozen "guys" who mostly washed out.. Maybe this time there will be a different approach.. After all, most of the same decision makers are still making the same decisions? That would benefit the Guardians.. so much..

 

[DerekG123]

Seems like every comment or suggested trade being bandied about on one of several websites from anyone other that knowledgeable A's fans and Guardians' fans have at least two, and some three of Valera, Williams, and Rocchio included in the deal. Some add Quantrill or McKenzie or Clase.. To their credit, very few mention Bo Naylor.. ever fewer mention Daniel Espino..

Notable are the insightful A's fans who have seen their club trade for years.. They have evidence of "..the quantity over quality deals for long term controlled prospects.." as their clear and overriding M.O.. While history tends to repeat itself, especially when the lessons learned are ignored.. the A's current situation is eerily similar to their last rebuild where they acquired more than a half dozen "guys" who mostly washed out.. Maybe this time there will be a different approach.. After all, most of the same decision makers are still making the same decisions? That would benefit the Guardians.. so much..

Yeah. Its kinda like our imaginary trades in the last few years where the Dodgers trade 3 top 100 prospects for Lindor or Bieber. Probably not gone happen.

 

[sportscoach]

Yeah. Its kinda like our imaginary trades in the last few years where the Dodgers trade 3 top 100 prospects for Lindor or Bieber. Probably not gone happen.

Bieber would get 3 top 100 prospects at the bare minimum or he's not getting moved...

 

[Gson]

Yeah. Its kinda like our imaginary trades in the last few years where the Dodgers trade 3 top 100 prospects for Lindor or Bieber. Probably not gone happen.

Pretty much on point.. two points, actually..

In both teams' cases.. the sloughing of payroll is highly motivating.. and meaningful.. Carlos Carrasco's inclusion in the Lindor deal "stung" imho.. but, losing his eight figure salary certainly soothed the pain..

Acquisition Profiles are where the two teams segregate.. I think the acquisition of at least one ML'er creates the biggest difference between the deals worked out by the Guardians and those worked out by the A's. The Lindor deal had Amed.. He was a short term control guy but brought immediate returns to the Guardians.. Gimenez had already tasted the major leagues but had several years of control remaining. Both guys have proven themselves to be more than "roster fodder".. The other two guys in the deal, Isaiah Greene and Josh Wolf, have yet to reveal their fullest value.. At least we can hope.. The A's big deals have been, for the most part, nothing short of an abomination.. They don't get the near and ML ready prospects.. they get a boat load of Josh's and Isaiah's.. Like their Montas and Manaea deals.. Can anyone, without Dr. Google, name who the A's acquired for these guys?.. I had to look them up..

Getting immediate and contributing player(s) in this kind of deal generates trust in the CleFO.. and it's well deserved.. IDK how many comments were made regarding the A's FO and their lack of any idea abotu what they're doing..

We'll see, I guess..

 

[sportscoach]

This is nothing but BS. What was going to happen to JRam if he didn't take his offer? MFer was a goner. How can they even contemplate such a thing?

It's not BS since Gson said JRam isn't getting an extension...

Simply stated.. spewing BS by digging in heels makes discussion moot.. People who are unable to discuss more than their own narrow minded unrealistic points of view.. lose every argument.. and then, with ego fully in view, lie about not further discussing any subject.. sort of sad..

@CDAV45 Correct on JRam.. How many times was the comment added to any posting on any sight.. "...if an extension cannot be arranged..."

BIG F^CKIN OOOOOPS..

Guess what.. an extension was worked out.. making every comment correct and making the latest "never gonna happen and you can't change what's left of my mind" discussion moot save for the re-writing of history (read: LIE).. like with JRam.. smh..

We are contenders not pretenders... We already have a stacked farm but the SP prospects have a 24 MLB timeline. Why would any good team trade their Ace in the middle of a contending year... Bieber isn't going anywhere in 23 if we ate winning... You cannot replace what he means to the team in 23 plus you need a 4th starter unless you expect Cleveland to have a top 2 record in the AL. It's not BS it's common sense... I shouldn't have to be the one to point that out

 

[DerekG123]

Bieber would get 3 top 100 prospects at the bare minimum or he's not getting moved...

Yeah I know...part of the reason he isnt getting moved imo.

 

[sportscoach]

Yeah I know...part of the reason he isnt getting moved imo.

Dodgers could afford to do it and resign him. He's from Cali as well. People forget Bieber isn't very old and he's going to be a young free agent as well.

 

[CDAV45]

It's not BS since Gson said JRam isn't getting an extension...



We are contenders not pretenders... We already have a stacked farm but the SP prospects have a 24 MLB timeline. Why would any good team trade their Ace in the middle of a contending year... Bieber isn't going anywhere in 23 if we ate winning... You cannot replace what he means to the team in 23 plus you need a 4th starter unless you expect Cleveland to have a top 2 record in the AL. It's not BS it's common sense... I shouldn't have to be the one to point that out

Because they can't afford to keep him and they have SP depth. You stating the SP prospect have a 24 MLB timeline is worst case scenario. Both Williams and Bibee could easily be promoted to start 23 and outperform Civale and Plesac........easily. They are TOR SP prospects that wouldn't need to pitch at the top of the rotation because TMac has proven he is capable.

You don't know if he can be replaced or not and you stating that it's common sense has no foundation. You don't even know what the return would be. The question to answer right now is if an extension can be reached. If it can't they need to trade his ass while they can still get a haul.

The only timeline for 2024 is when this team becomes a legitimate, perennial WS contender. That's with or without Bieber.

 

[hockeyjohn]

Because they can't afford to keep him and they have SP depth. You stating the SP prospect have a 24 MLB timeline is worst case scenario. Both Williams and Bibee could easily be promoted to start 23 and outperform Civale and Plesac........easily. They are TOR SP prospects that wouldn't need to pitch at the top of the rotation because TMac has proven he is capable.

You don't know if he can be replaced or not and you stating that it's common sense has no foundation. You don't even know what the return would be. The question to answer right now is if an extension can be reached. If it can't they need to trade his ass while they can still get a haul.

The only timeline for 2024 is when this team becomes a legitimate, perennial WS contender. That's with or without Bieber.

Expecting two young pitchers to both be successful with limited AA experience is just outright foolish in my opinion when you do not have to do it. Trading Bieber kills the 2023 season and sends a terrible message to a young team and to the fanbase. Antonetti will not sell out 2023 nor should he. How many pitchers and players have been ruined by being pushed well before they are ready?