Baker Mayfield: Fire The Cannons

[Lee]

Nice.

So first you throw 5 TD's in one game, now you are quoting DMX? Stop I want to go back to not being in love with you.

 

[Lee]

Yes but we have to look at a bigger picture than just finding a guy that's good for Baker. Baker is not at the level of QB play where you have to build your roster around him yet so it's tricky. I want smart moves too but it's not like they're easy to find.

Higgins for sure is a possession receiver and hasn't had a big role because we have 2 pro-bowlers in front and we run allot of 2 or 1 receiver sets and run the ball allot, only so many balls to go around. He does seem to work well with Baker, but that isn't the end all be all to me, so I want to keep him again, but only on a reasonable contract as he has proven to be a solid 30-50 catch type receiver when given time.

DPJ was stuck behind 2 pro bowlers and a vet in Higgins. When he got his shot, he showed heart and intelligence and blocked the shit out of people, smart way to get on field. I was excited about the pick as I think he has 2nd round talent. WR is one of the most difficult positions to learn as a rookie, I am excited to see what he can do with a role in the offense. Also he does have game breaking speed so that is an element he provides that Higgins cant.

 

[Triplethreat]

 

[Lee]

I know the point is see Baker is #2 this week, after all, this is the Baker thread, but I see 2 40 year olds still getting it done at a very high level, amazing.

 

[Triplethreat]

I’d like to also put this out there because there has been a ton of talk about how “it’s the bengals and it’s a horrible defense”

last year Baker vs the Bengals

Home: 11-24 - 192 yards - 0 TDs - 2 INT
Away: 12-27 - 279 yards - 3 TDs - 3 INT

This year:
Home: 16-23 - 219 yards - 2 TDs - 1 INT
Away: 22-28 - 297 yards - 5 TDs - 1 INT

I could care less what anyone says, to me that is major progress.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I understand your point and in an ideal world that would be perfect but at some point teams have to make tough decisions and a lot of guys who we are assuming will be getting contracts and be here for years to come won't. Guys like Larry Ogunjobi were in line to get an extension are now looking like they might be on the roster bubble going into next season. The O-line is already solidified except for Wyatt Teller. I don't think money is a issue there.

Assuming Teller is healthy, he is going to be expensive. And he really is a difference maker on that OL.

Bottom line is that while you may see moving OBJ as a smart move for financial reasons he's not going to be an easy player to move. You're not going to get anything higher than a 3rd round pick from him with a torn ACL this offseason and at that point you re-signed to keeping him on the roster well into next season. That's just where we're at.

A third rounder and spending that $15M on a DB or pass rusher would fill a greater need than would OBJ. And that's less a comment on OBJ than it is on how badly we need defensive help.

 

[Randolphkeys]

From where I'm sitting, it is less about "getting rid" of OBJ, and more about whether his salary is worth the improvement in performance over a guy like Higgins. Our offense may be almost as good with a dominant running game, and reliable possession receivers.

I want to preface with the fact I was very hesitant to trade for OBJ two off-seasons ago. The New York media had created hype around his play that didn't quite match his skill level. I would have been okay with selecting Marquise Brown to pair with Baker since they already had chemistry.

But here we are, two years into OBJ in Cleveland. So much went so wrong in his first summer camp and preseason. He barely practiced in training camp because of injuries and some overconfidence, neither did Baker.

When it was game time, the chemistry wasn't in place. Kitchens being overwhelmed as a play caller certainly didn't help. Once he sustained a hernia, we as fans didn't really get to see the real OBJ. However, we can all agree OBJ came with great expectations for whatever combo of reasons 2019 didn't work out.

What have you seen that is truly OBJ underperforming in 2020? How much of his impact has been limited by Mayfield's inconsistency? According to PFF, OBJ is having a very productive season and has performed well even when his quarterback has not.

I think this is important to keep in mind as the financial aspect is worked out. He is not going to be cut, his contract is protected due to injury.

I think it's important to examine the sources who suggest OBJ traded away from the Browns. Stephen A. Smith suggested he is "wasting his prime" in Cleveland. Two national sports outlets that are, generously labeled, disruptors of the journalism establishment took Stephen A. comments and ran with them. Others might just call online websites like "Heavy" or "the Spun" cheap click bait which doesn't put in much research. Of course, much of this was started days before the injury.

In my opinion, some less than professional journalists set up scapegoats for the Steelers game. Some of the journalists who did so putting OBJ against Browns fans on Twitter. I myself am extremely skeptical of how Twitter rumors manifest themselves into click bait articles.

I'd much rather hear quotes from Baker and Odell about their own relationship on and off the field. There's stronger source connections there than anywhere else.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I want to preface with the fact I was very hesitant to trade for OBJ two off-seasons ago. The New York media had created hype around his play that didn't quite match his skill level. I would have been okay with selecting Marquise Brown to pair with Baker since they already had chemistry.

But here we are, two years into OBJ in Cleveland. So much went so wrong in his first summer camp and preseason. He barely practiced in training camp because of injuries and some overconfidence, neither did Baker.

When it was game time, the chemistry wasn't in place. Kitchens being overwhelmed as a play caller certainly didn't help. Once he sustained a hernia, we as fans didn't really get to see the real OBJ. However, we can all agree OBJ came with great expectations for whatever combo of reasons 2019 didn't work out.

What have you seen that is truly OBJ underperforming in 2020? How much of his impact has been limited by Mayfield's inconsistency? According to PFF, OBJ is having a very productive season and has performed well even when his quarterback has not.

I think this is important to keep in mind as the financial aspect is worked out. He is not going to be cut, his contract is protected due to injury.

I think it's important to examine the sources who suggest OBJ traded away from the Browns. Stephen A. Smith suggested he is "wasting his prime" in Cleveland. Two national sports outlets that are, generously labeled, disruptors of the journalism establishment took Stephen A. comments and ran with them. Others might just call online websites like "Heavy" or "the Spun" cheap click bait which doesn't put in much research. Of course, much of this was started days before the injury.

In my opinion, some less than professional journalists set up scapegoats for the Steelers game. Some of the journalists who did so putting OBJ against Browns fans on Twitter. I myself am extremely skeptical of how Twitter rumors manifest themselves into click bait articles.

I'd much rather hear quotes from Baker and Odell about their own relationship on and off the field. There's stronger source connections there than anywhere else.

Again, it's not a question of scapegoating anyone. I don't even get ESPN, and don't give two shits about what Smith or any other talking head says about trading OBJ. It's simply a matter of allocating money.

Defensively, we are a disaster. We basically have one starting quality DB, and he is going to be up for major pay increase. Otherwise, the DB's and LB's are below average as a group. We also need another pass rusher.

Offensively, we are a run heavy team that has invested heavily in the OL, and that has a strong TE group. We're going to have to spend even more to extend Teller, Chubb, and likely Mayfield. Not to mention the money it will take to retain Ward.

I don't see a roadmap to fixing the defense and retaining other critical offensive players while paying Landry and OBJ a combined $26M. Given that we seem to have some young WR's that aren't completely incompetent, OBJ and his $15M+ seem more of a luxury than a necessity, and I just don't think we can continue to afford that.

 

[Los216]

Again, it's not a question of scapegoating anyone. I don't even get ESPN, and don't give two shits about what Smith or any other talking head says about trading OBJ. It's simply a matter of allocating money.

Defensively, we are a disaster. We basically have one starting quality DB, and he is going to be up for major pay increase. Otherwise, the DB's and LB's are below average as a group. We also need another pass rusher.

Offensively, we are a run heavy team that has invested heavily in the OL, and that has a strong TE group. We're going to have to spend even more to extend Teller, Chubb, and likely Mayfield.

I don't see a roadmap to fixing the defense and retaining other critical offensive players while paying Landry and OBJ a combined $26M. Given that we seem to have some young WR's that aren't completely incompetent, OBJ and his $15M+ seem more of a luxury than a necessity, and I just don't think we can continue to afford that.

Any defensive player making as much as OBJ that could potentially help us in a trade will probably require a pick attached to OBJ if he's still recovering from an ACL injury. At that point the player pool to fit that criteria is even more limited.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Any defensive player making as much as OBJ that could potentially help us in a trade will probably require a pick attached to OBJ if he's still recovering from an ACL injury. At that point the player pool to fit that criteria is even more limited.

Doesn't have to be a player making as much as OBJ. Any salary we save becomes an asset moving forward.

 

[Los216]

Doesn't have to be a player making as much as OBJ. Any salary we save becomes an asset moving forward.

But that's likely not going to happen with the way the NFL cap is structured. OBJ's guaranteed $13M is going to count against that new teams cap regardless how big or small the incoming player counts towards ours. So you have to find a team that not only has a player we want but they need to be willing to eat $13M for a player who may or may not even be ready for camp.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

But that's likely not going to happen with the way the NFL cap is structured. OBJ's guaranteed $13M is going to count against that new teams cap regardless how big or small the incoming player counts towards ours. So you have to find a team that not only has a player we want but they need to be willing to eat $13M for a player who may or may not even be ready for camp.

I don't understand your point. Didn't you say someone would likely give us a 3rd round pick for him? So do that deal, then try to trade for a defensive player. If one isn't available, we still get to bank the savings from no longer having OBJ on the roster.

ETA: Also, the likely drop in the salary cap for 2021 is going to put even more pressure on our salary structure. The OBJ/Landry combo is going to make even less sense salary-wise moving forward.

 

[Los216]

I don't understand your point. Didn't you say someone would likely give us a 3rd round pick for him? So do that deal, then try to trade for a defensive player. If one isn't available, we still get to bank the savings from no longer having OBJ on the roster.

Nobody is going to trade a 3rd round pick for OBJ before March 15th

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Nobody is going to trade a 3rd round pick for OBJ before March 15th

His 2021 salary is injury guaranteed already, but whatever. Move him then and let his new team pick up his salary. Still leaves us better off salary-wise, and if we pick up a third in the process, all the better

 

[Randolphkeys]

His 2021 salary is injury guaranteed already, but whatever. Move him then and let his new team pick up his salary. Still leaves us better off salary-wise, and if we pick up a third in the process, all the better

For reference, OBJ is the eighth highest paid receiver on a per year basis while also being the eighth rated WR by PFF over the course of his career, and is in his age prime. The injury could change that, but the contract is in line with his production as a WR1.

I understand you are of the position that a WR1 isn't a position to pay a high premium on. I'd say plenty of analytics guys would disagree, especially since the scheme uses a lot of two receiver sets. Stefanski's scheme isn't a "quantity over quality" scheme for receivers.

We will see how it plays out, but I'm interested to see what Hodge and Higgins can do with this unfortunate opportunity.