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Ben Simmons: He’s who the people want.

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Would you mortgage your future for Simmons?


  • Total voters
    146
My last piece on Simmons is this..........

Without baggage, a player with his talent and skill would generally never be available. And if he were, the price would be so exorbitant, it wouldn't even be worth a conversation.

Now, that isn't always a good reason to acquire someone but it does seem to be a point a lot of people are missing here. Accepting some risk is how you generally win more consequential trades. If you don't want to take the risk.....fine.....that is one thing.......but we have started getting a little too hyperbolic on the skill of the actual available player here. There's not doubt, to me, Simmons would make us a better team. Anyone saying otherwise is not being honest with themselves IMO.
I am gonna piggyback off this cause I do agree…

I’m not a big time Simmons guy but he is a phenomenal playmaker, rebounder, tremendous defender…

It really comes down to how much you have to get rid of to acquire him. With the way the other pieces have developed I do believe you could plug him into the lineup and the team really becomes a juggernaut…

In addition I do believe these kinda bigs on this team cater more to his style of game and could ultimately improve his production… The cutting, screens/lobs, being able to run the floor all fit what Ben Simmons does best….And of course defensively you have a lock down defender who can defend both 1 on 1 and within a team concept….

I believe Garland is versatile enough to play well with him but I’d be really intrigued to see what he can do with the bigs the Cavs have cause there is more ball movement and player movement within this offense than what Philly runs with Embiid
 
My last piece on Simmons is this..........

Without baggage, a player with his talent and skill would generally never be available. And if he were, the price would be so exorbitant, it wouldn't even be worth a conversation.

Now, that isn't always a good reason to acquire someone but it does seem to be a point a lot of people are missing here. Accepting some risk is how you generally win more consequential trades. If you don't want to take the risk.....fine.....that is one thing.......but we have started getting a little too hyperbolic on the skill of the actual available player here. There's not doubt, to me, Simmons would make us a better team. Anyone saying otherwise is not being honest with themselves IMO.
He would make us a more talented team, no doubt. That’s not the question here though.
the question is about the culture that the Cavaliers have carefully built over the last several years, and what adding Ben Simmons does to that dynamic. Because sometimes it isn’t about the talent
 
Simmons is really interesting. If his head is right and can be a good teammate, we add him to our core (and figure how to keep everyone around) and we are title contenders for the next decade - seriously who could score on Mobley, Allen & Simmons? It would be a legendary defensive lineup. If he's the headcase and locker room cancer some people think he is, he could poison the whole thing before it really gets going. I don't have any idea which scenario is the most likely. But the NBA is a pretty small club and I bet the players and GM's have a pretty good idea of where the truth lies.
 
When everyone else is the problem, you’re the problem.

Yes, a bit reductive - but what’s more likely? He’s been treated unfairly by all key people on his team, or he’s such an asshole that his team hates him?

I completely agree with your point here. Simmons very likely is an asshole. I’m just saying that Embiid, Doc, Morey, and the whole city of Philadelphia except for @2 For The Brew are also assholes. This situation sucks for them. I just don’t see why Simmons seems to be the only one taking the brunt of the criticism for it like it’s his fault he can’t hit a 3.

It’s gotten to the point where all the rest of his elite level of play is being completely ignored and that’s so strange to me. He doesn’t “suck”, he’s not “one of the worst contracts in the NBA”, he’s not “untradeable”, he didn’t “quit” playing elite level defense and playmaking in the playoffs, etc..

Here I am standing up for a guy I don’t even really like, but I guess my main point is the legend of Ben Simmons problems have far far exceeded the reality.

The Cavs have shown interest. We probably need to all prepare ourselves at least for the possibility and have some faith in Koby.
 
The Ricky Rubio injury might've given the 76ers more leverage in potential trade talks. I'm not comfortable giving up future assets for Simmons, even if he was playing. He could be somewhat rusty from all the time off.

Even with the Rubio injury, I'm still not trading for Simmons unless the asking price has come down significantly.
 
Also, he is untradeable- have people not been watching the Sixers try and fail to trade him for months now? So he’s a huge risk in that sense too. You get him, you’re not getting rid of him.
Given his salary, and the assets it would take to acquire him, we would be completely screwed if it didn't work out, which is likely at least a 50-50 proposition. He is a completely unnecessary risk that could torpedo the best collection of young talent this franchise has ever had.

Why the hell should we take that risk? It's like we're holding aces over kings, and discarding the kings in the hope of pulling another ace.

This team's future is too bright to take a risk like that.
 
He would make us a more talented team, no doubt. That’s not the question here though.
the question is about the culture that the Cavaliers have carefully built over the last several years, and what adding Ben Simmons does to that dynamic. Because sometimes it isn’t about the talent
The culture came because we had good players and were winning. That culture could change very soon with no real backup pg.
 
He would make us a more talented team, no doubt. That’s not the question here though.
the question is about the culture that the Cavaliers have carefully built over the last several years, and what adding Ben Simmons does to that dynamic. Because sometimes it isn’t about the talent

At this point, we are just unrealistically waxing poetic about this stuff.

We are what? 3/4 of a season removed from Andre Drummond being a thing? And Love trying to torpedo his way out of town?

We have culture because we are winning.......not because we have carefully cultivated anything.
 
I completely agree with your point here. Simmons very likely is an asshole. I’m just saying that Embiid, Doc, Morey, and the whole city of Philadelphia except for @2 For The Brew are also assholes. This situation sucks for them. I just don’t see why Simmons seems to be the only one taking the brunt of the criticism for it like it’s his fault he can’t hit a 3.

I'm not exactly sure what your point is. Simmons' problem has never been that he's "an asshole" as such. If you look back at his pre-draft reports, the problem has always been a lack of intensity and off-court dedication. His love for playing the game also has rightly been questioned (again, that's also pre-Sixers), and all of that is entirely on him.
It’s gotten to the point where all the rest of his elite level of play is being completely ignored and that’s so strange to me.

The issue for the Cavs is that offensively, he possesses only one viable skill, and it is one we already have. Taking the role of primary distributor away from Garland and giving it to Simmons is not an improvement. And his critical weakness is one that would be exacerbated by what we'd have to give up to acquire him. Different situation if pairing him with Sexton in the starting backcourt was on the table because that is at least a better fit in terms of style.
 
The issue for the Cavs is that offensively, he possesses only one viable skill, and it is one we already have. Taking the role of primary distributor away from Garland and giving it to Simmons is not an improvement. And his critical weakness is one that would be exacerbated by what we'd have to give up to acquire him. Different situation if pairing him with Sexton in the starting backcourt was on the table because that is at least a better fit in terms of style.

Good debate.

This seems like where I see things differently. While I agree that we don’t want to take the ball out of Garlands hands as the primary distributor, I think there is plenty of room for Simmons to be the 1B. If Garland is playing 34 mpg I would expect the rotation to be staggered so that Simmons is on the court for the other 14. Additionally, just like with Rubio, there are plenty of possessions available where Garland can “take a rest” on the court and let someone else bring it up and initiate. To me, having that secondary ball handler has jumped to the top priority on this team, so I place a TON of value on that skill set.

You surround him with Love, Osman, Mobley, and Markk for stretches while Garland and Allen rest and I think that lineup would be our own version of the mythical “death” lineup.

Also, I disagree that playmaking is the only viable skill that translates. His 2 offensive rebounds per game from the 1, 2, or 3 position would be a huge boost. His ability to drive and finish is also pretty critically underrated. Like Okoro on steroids levels.

Maybe my biggest disagreement point though is completely ignoring the defensive side of the ball. I believe adding Simmons to Allen and Mobley would give the Cavs the best defensive lineup in the league, even doubly so when you factor in his ability to rebound. As it stands now, we have zero answers for KD and Giannis, or any of the other elite level wings we will face. While you can’t stop those guys, I believe Simmons would give us a punchers chance. That skill set is the one that makes me most interested in adding him.


However, I am fully acknowledging that what I just typed is perfect world. There are many drawbacks and risks, which is why he’s not on the top of my own personal list. The questionable work ethic, the cost to acquire him, and the shooting issues, in that order, are glaring concerns.

But, as others have stated, the Cavs clearly can and likely have checked in on his mentality. They believed enough that he checks out to make an offer for him. Koby has far more info than any of us, so I choose to trust him.

The cost has certainly come down but we obviously can’t trade all of our assets for him. If it’s low enough and we can make it work? Full speed ahead. Otherwise, look elsewhere.

The shooting? Again, as others have stated, I believe the Cavs offense is more well suited to fit Simmons game due to our lack of iso play and constant motion. I get why people would see it differently. I envision when Simmons is off ball, he’s curling around screens and catching the ball in spots to drive and finish or kick it to the corner for a 3. On ball? No concerns for me. Free throw shooting? Yep he stinks. Teams can win with awful free throw shooters (Shaq, Big Ben, Dwight, Giannis, etc) but it makes it more challenging. The positive spin is that racking up fouls on the other team does help in the long run. The negative is that you have to play offense/defense in some critical situations.

Do the other positives outweigh the shooting negatives? In my mind they do, but again, only if the mentality and price are right. Big if’s, indeed.
 
Yeah, and LeBron would be thrilled to have Ben’s shooting and spacing for the next 3 2/3 seasons. Actually I’d love to see Simmons for Westbrook to completely frustrate LeBron.
Say what you want about Simmons (and I'd agree with most of it), LBJ would be better off with him than with Westbrook. You are better off with a player who is afraid to take a shot rather than a player who has never passed up a shot they seldom make. Plus Westbrook is good for 5-8 mind numbing turnovers a game and plays completely disinterested defense. Given the current amazing level of LBJ's play, give him Simmons as a replacement to Westbrook and they are at the very least in the playoffs. As it stands right now Westbrook will send James to an early grave.
 
To answer both comments about our current culture being a result of winning, I would say that winning of course helps with any culture. But I think that is incredibly shortsighted. Why did they remove Andre drummond last year from the team? Why did they trade Kevin porter jr? Why did they target ricky Rubio? Why has the entire team talked about “buying in” to an offense that is opposite of NBA standard iso ball? Why do we exist in the top 5 teams in assists per game? Why are even nba deficient defenders like KLove and Marky Markk getting passing grades on defensive effort?

THAT is culture.

maybe Ben Simmons would buy in and be totally different than he’s appeared. Those that mention that his situation is partly the fault of embiid and coach pushing him publicly under the bus…..but how frustrated do you have to get with someone not improving their weaknesses to help the team to do that?
 
I completely agree with your point here. Simmons very likely is an asshole. I’m just saying that Embiid, Doc, Morey, and the whole city of Philadelphia except for @2 For The Brew are also assholes. This situation sucks for them. I just don’t see why Simmons seems to be the only one taking the brunt of the criticism for it like it’s his fault he can’t hit a 3.

It’s gotten to the point where all the rest of his elite level of play is being completely ignored and that’s so strange to me. He doesn’t “suck”, he’s not “one of the worst contracts in the NBA”, he’s not “untradeable”, he didn’t “quit” playing elite level defense and playmaking in the playoffs, etc..

Here I am standing up for a guy I don’t even really like, but I guess my main point is the legend of Ben Simmons problems have far far exceeded the reality.

The Cavs have shown interest. We probably need to all prepare ourselves at least for the possibility and have some faith in Koby.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain - i suppose where we differ is that I don’t think his problems are worth the elite skills he absolutely does have. He does have elite skills no doubt, but you can’t use them if he can’t be played at the end of games.
 
To answer both comments about our current culture being a result of winning, I would say that winning of course helps with any culture. But I think that is incredibly shortsighted. Why did they remove Andre drummond last year from the team? Why did they trade Kevin porter jr? Why did they target ricky Rubio? Why has the entire team talked about “buying in” to an offense that is opposite of NBA standard iso ball? Why do we exist in the top 5 teams in assists per game? Why are even nba deficient defenders like KLove and Marky Markk getting passing grades on defensive effort?

THAT is culture.

maybe Ben Simmons would buy in and be totally different than he’s appeared. Those that mention that his situation is partly the fault of embiid and coach pushing him publicly under the bus…..but how frustrated do you have to get with someone not improving their weaknesses to help the team to do that?

Culture is much less about "converting" players than it is about acquiring the right kind who fit, and booting/not acquiring those who don't.

In other words, don't acquire dudes with issues and count on your culture fixing them. Acquire the guys who already fit.
 

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