Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

[The Human Q-Tip]

Cavatt said that can't be his ceiling because he's already better than him.

And I'm not in agreement with Cavatt's statement that he's already as good/better than Cassell.

2) Because he hasn't reached that level, it is possible that it could be his ceiling. (I'm not arguing that it's impossible that Robbie is wrong)

I agree with all that. Cassell could be Sexton's ceiling, no question. The particular statement with which I was taking issue was that it was "irrelevant" how Cassell compared to Sexton at comparable ages in terms of determining whether Cassell was Sexton's ceiling. I think that's a relevant bit of information to put into the hopper in terms of trying to guesstimate (which is admittedly all we're doing in here anyway) whether Sexton's ceiling is Cassell, or perhaps something better. Or worse.

That's all.

I personally think Sexton has the potential to be more impactful than Cassell, because he may end up being a much more dangerous offensive player. Sexton already, at at 21, has scored more points in a game than Cassell ever did. I'd still agree that Cassell at his peak is a better player than is Sexton right now, but the rather stunning improvements Sexton has made in his first two years bodes pretty well for continued improvement into the future.

But he's gotta figure out that defense.....

 

[Derek]

Ok, but the same point still holds right? I don't want to pick apart this ceiling comparison more than necessary...but how does it make sense to say Sexton's ceiling is that he improves leaps and bounds as a point guard but completely flatlines as a scorer? That seems like a bizarre outcome that's not a "ceiling" in any ordinary sense of the word.

That's not what's being said at all. Sounds like you have more of an issue with the premise of the question.

And I'm not in agreement with Cavatt's statement that he's already as good/better than Cassell.



I agree with all that. Cassell could be Sexton's ceiling, no question. The particular statement with which I was taking issue was that it was "irrelevant" how Cassell compared to Sexton at comparable ages in terms of determining whether Cassell was Sexton's ceiling. I think that's a relevant bit of information to put into the hopper in terms of trying to guesstimate (which is admittedly all we're doing in here anyway) whether Sexton's ceiling is Cassell, or perhaps something better. Or worse.

That's all.

I personally think Sexton has the potential to be more impactful than Cassell, because he may end up being a much more dangerous offensive player. Sexton already, at at 21, has scored more points in a game than Cassell ever did. I'd still agree that Cassell at his peak is a better player than is Sexton right now, but the rather stunning improvements Sexton has made in his first two years bodes pretty well for continued improvement into the future.

But he's gotta figure out that defense.....

That's not what I said at all. I said it was irrelevant in determining who was the better player and whether or not it was a possible ceiling because the post I responded too claimed it was impossible for that to be his ceiling because he was already better than him.

I can interpret that two ways:

1) He's better at this stage in their careers, so he'll be better at his peak as well.

I think we can agree that's not correct.

2) He's better now than Cassell ever was.

I think we can also agree that this is not correct.



If you want to have the conversation about whether or not it's likely, fine, but I don't want to argue too much for @Robbie Jay. I mostly think you guys are underrating the impact Cassell had at his peak because I'd be ecstatic if Sexton could...

Be the co-best player on an above .500 team
Be second fiddle to a superstar on a near 60 win team that reaches the conference finals

Cassell was both of those things at different points in his career. I don't see it as a slight in any way to say that might be his ceiling.

 

[Cavatt]

That's not what's being said at all. Sounds like you have more of an issue with the premise of the question.


That's not what I said at all. I said it was irrelevant in determining who was the better player and whether or not it was a possible ceiling because the post I responded too claimed it was impossible for that to be his ceiling because he was already better than him.

I can interpret that two ways:

1) He's better at this stage in their careers, so he'll be better at his peak as well.

I think we can agree that's not correct.

2) He's better now than Cassell ever was.

I think we can also agree that this is not correct.



If you want to have the conversation about whether or not it's likely, fine, but I don't want to argue too much for @Robbie Jay. I mostly think you guys are underrating the impact Cassell had at his peak because I'd be ecstatic if Sexton could...

Be the co-best player on an above .500 team
Be second fiddle to a superstar on a near 60 win team that reaches the conference finals

Cassell was both of those things at different points in his career. I don't see it as a slight in any way to say that might be his ceiling.

I always thought Cassell sucked. I remember thinking, "Damn this is the help Garnett has.". I looked at him as a worse Mo Williams, which I guess is what he is, fringe all star on a 60 win team that made the conference finals.

That was the beginning of me watching basketball seriously though, so I admit i don't have a great appreciation for his work and didn't watch him like I would now.

I definitely think Collin is the better scorer right now than Cassell ever was. Even per 100 he has one better scoring season on worse efficiency.

I think you are right that I was making the argument that you have to assume Section adds experience and improves his skills in the next 8 years. But yes, it's true it is not a given he will improve like I think he will. Saying he is miles better than Cassell at a younger age doesn't mean he will reach a higher peak.

I'm not sure I ever thought Cassell was actually even a number 2 because my perception of that Minnesota team was more like LeBron taking the Cavs to the finals in 2007. I'm open to the fact that I'm wrong. Maybe I just bought into the whole Garnett had no help thing. It was the easy parallel to draw

 

[Derek]

@Cavatt
Cassell was far better and way more valuable than Mo Williams ever was. The issue was that he had that T-Wolves season at age 34 and had a sharp decline shortly after. Plus, I think we're aware that there's a large gap between LeBron and peak KG.

Mo never could have never been the best player on an above .500 playoff team like Cassell was for Calipari's Nets.

Here are the seasons Mo had with a VORP over 1:
07-08 - 1.4
08-09 - 3.1
09-10 - 2.3

Cassell had 11 such seasons, his best seasons were:
03-04 - 4.6
97-98 - 3.7
02-03 - 3.2

Plus, his PER ranged from 20.1 to 22.8 over the span of 1997-2004. Mo never had better than 17.2 in 08-09. Cassell had 10 full seasons where he surpassed that number.

 

[Nathan S]

@Cavatt
Cassell was far better and way more valuable than Mo Williams ever was. The issue was that he had that T-Wolves season at age 34 and had a sharp decline shortly after. Plus, I think we're aware that there's a large gap between LeBron and peak KG.

Mo never could have never been the best player on an above .500 playoff team like Cassell was for Calipari's Nets.

Here are the seasons Mo had with a VORP over 1:
07-08 - 1.4
08-09 - 3.1
09-10 - 2.3

Cassell had 11 such seasons, his best seasons were:
03-04 - 4.6
97-98 - 3.7
02-03 - 3.2

Plus, his PER ranged from 20.1 to 22.8 over the span of 1997-2004. Mo never had better than 17.2 in 08-09. Cassell had 10 full seasons where he surpassed that number.

So your understanding of this question is that we ignore all the details of how different players add value and talk in terms of single-number metrics? That seems to make the exercise of finding comparison players particularly pointless. We could at least save a lot of breath and talk about what Sexton's ceiling is in terms of VORP instead.

 

[Derek]

So your understanding of this question is that we ignore all the details of how different players add value and talk in terms of single-number metrics? That seems to make the exercise of finding comparison players particularly pointless. We could at least save a lot of breath and talk about what Sexton's ceiling is in terms of VORP instead.

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate that.

The question posed specifically said "not in terms of skill set"

Take it up with @Ben

 

[Nathan S]

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate that.

The question posed specifically said "not in terms of skill set"

Take it up with @Ben

My bad for not reading the original prompt!

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Please fight. I'm bored as fuck. That one message disagreement is simply not enough, and that love emoji is sickening.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Derek with the disrespect love emoji right in the scrotum.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

@Cavatt
Cassell was far better and way more valuable than Mo Williams ever was. The issue was that he had that T-Wolves season at age 34 and had a sharp decline shortly after. Plus, I think we're aware that there's a large gap between LeBron and peak KG.

Mo never could have never been the best player on an above .500 playoff team like Cassell was for Calipari's Nets.

Here are the seasons Mo had with a VORP over 1:
07-08 - 1.4
08-09 - 3.1
09-10 - 2.3

Cassell had 11 such seasons, his best seasons were:
03-04 - 4.6
97-98 - 3.7
02-03 - 3.2

Plus, his PER ranged from 20.1 to 22.8 over the span of 1997-2004. Mo never had better than 17.2 in 08-09. Cassell had 10 full seasons where he surpassed that number.

Cassell was a really nice player, and certainly good enough to be a starter on a championship team. I'm not sure Cassell is Sexton's absolute ceiling, but we should be happy if he ends up as good as Cassell. Especially on defense.

 

[ansatsusha80]

NBA planning return, but will it include Collin Sexton?

The basketball league has been off the court since March 11, but it hopes to return on July 31.

www.al.com

 

[ansatsusha80]

He was talking about CP3 once and the reporter asked, "what do you want to emulate from him?" I wanted him to say assists and defense, instead he said that smooth mid range. Only time I have been unhappy with how he sees himself.

I read Cavs facts today. Said Collin the most double digit scoring games in his draft class. Is that just because he never missed a game? 1st clippers game is the only one I know of this year off the top of my head where he didn't get at least 10

I think he'll improve his defense and assists but I think he's more comfortable in the midrange area.

I'm curious what his midrange stats vs his three-point stats.

 

[Derek]

I think he'll improve his defense and assists but I think he's more comfortable in the midrange area.

I'm curious what his midrange stats vs his three-point stats.

44.6% from 10-16ft for 0.89 points per shot
41.9% from 16-23ft for 0.84 points per shot
38.0% from beyond 23ft for 1.14 points per shot

according to basketball reference

 

[Alec]

As it pertains to the Cavs, Sexton not being able to play is probably the biggest disappointment about this season returning and the Cavs being excluded.

 

[Cavatt]

As it pertains to the Cavs, Sexton not being able to play is probably the biggest disappointment about this season returning and the Cavs being excluded.

There was definitely some growth there at the end of the year that I wasn't ready to give up on. I really think he was playing in the flow of the game and was playing with instead of alongside his teammates.

Other guys too. Some of Porter's last games were his best. First quarter of the last Utah game was my favorite quarter of play from Porter. He was just a part of every play on both sides as a starter.

Somehow, Darius gets totally forgotten because he missed the last few games to injury and it makes it seem like I haven't seen him play in forever? Especially Darius and Porter could have made body altering leaps these past few months. Now that we are 8 months away from seeing them....