Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

[inliner311]

It depends on their plans with Okoro. If they plan on playing him at SG then I’d look to trade Sexton for a wing with some length & shooting ability. Maybe someone like Cam Reddish or Cam Johnson or a draft pick that they can turn into a similar player.

I think Okoro role is really guarding the best player 1-3 then rotating in the necessary player to balance both scoring and defense to make it work.

If we draft Mobley, I think we are going in on unique players and making adjustments for them vs trying to build a traditional lineup

 

[inliner311]

With all the Sexton trade rumors floating around, it seems like the Cavs have questions, not only about that pairing, but whether they want to commit big money to Collin for the long-term.

I think the speculation that don't want to commit to Sexton with big money is based off of not firmly wanting to extend him. There isn't really any upside of extending Sexton right now though, it just limits our flexibility. I don't believe Gilbert would be cheap, I think he is just willing to pay Sexton more as a RFA to gain 6 months of more flexibility than to get a slight discount in with an extension.

 

[LeeBuckeye]

VanVleet is pretty strong and in his physical prime at 27. Yaya Toure, a brilliant former box to box soccer player, wrote an article in the athletic about why bums are so important in football. Well, Kyle Lowry has made a career utilizing his bum while in compromising positions in the post against bigger players. All three of our guards are 20-22 years old and need more time in the weight room.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

When we talk about two undersized guards and two tall bigs, people often fixate on shot blocking after dribble penetration.

That's all fine and good, but there is a lot else that you're missing. There's rebounding. There's the ability to shoot over the undersized guards. There's the ability of an offense to get to wherever they want on the floor. There's the way that lack of length and size reduces the amount of turnovers you generate.

I like the idea of Sexland and Frobley--but I'd trade out of that in a heartbeat if we could get a solid NBA SF and run Garland/Okoro/SF/Mobley/Allen and actually have proper length and athleticism advantages at nearly every position on the floor.

 

[nolookpass]

With all the Sexton trade rumors floating around, it seems like the Cavs have questions, not only about that pairing, but whether they want to commit big money to Collin for the long-term.

You're missing my point. I think we all know about the Sexton rumors and the Cavs perhaps questioning his long-term future with the franchise. We are all aware of that, and I have nothing against that. But that has nothing to do with this thought exercise.

The whole thought exercise was:
- Wham pointing out from the HoopsHabit article: "We have seen NBA teams go small-ball, but never have we seen an undersized pairing of guards be matched by an oversized tandem of centers"
- Other posters referring to past examples of the Raptors and Pelicans
- Me sharing my thought that it was interesting but that Raptors and Pelicans had good defenders in their small-guard lineup, while the Cavs don't

- Then you came in and said "It depends on their plans with Okoro" and talked about the Cavs trading Sexton, kind of derailing that discussion. The whole point was to think about how the lineup would work for the Cavs theoretically, not what the Cavs are thinking or would do -- that's a separate discussion lol

 

[bs80]

We have seen NBA teams go small-ball, but never have we seen an undersized pairing of guards be matched by an oversized tandem of centers. The idea of playing two seven-footers at the same time as two 6’1″ players is a crazy one — yet it is one that could work in their favor. Especially, if Mobley is all he’s hyped up to be. A versatile big-man who can offer defense, playmaking, post-scoring and 3-point shooting is a match made in heaven for this Cavaliers’ team.

The defensive woes of SexLand could be totally covered up by the paint protection and versatility of an Allen/Mobley/Okoro trio. What’s more, Sexton’s role will be simplified as a scorer while Garland and Mobley share playmaking responsibilities.

So they're saying that because we've never seen such a lineup before that Sexland's deficiencies on defense COULD be covered up. It's still quite a leap of faith to bet that they will.

I also disagree with the "versatility of an Allen/Mobley/Okoro trio." Okoro's versatility is that he could switch between the 2 and 3. That is nullified when he is running with Sexland, and some would argue that he is actually being forced out of his ideal position.

However, the Cavaliers’ biggest problems will NOT be solved by trading Sexton this summer. This is a squad that recently ranked towards the bottom of the league both offensively and defensively. Trading away the team’s best scorer does not address those issues, it magnifies them.

The objective should be to maximize our assets. It all depends on what we can get in return for Sexton. Trading him for peanuts would be foolish. Trading him for a piece that could improve our defense more than Collin improves our offense would not be foolish. The big question is whether or not such an opportunity exists.

To be clear, this is not to say that Collin isn't a solid basketball player with some borderline elite aspects to his game. But between Sexton, Garland, and Okoro, one of them is going to have to be moved, and the prevailing factor may simply be that Sexton is up for an extension first.

 

[LeeBuckeye]

When we talk about two undersized guards and two tall bigs, people often fixate on shot blocking after dribble penetration.

That's all fine and good, but there is a lot else that you're missing. There's rebounding. There's the ability to shoot over the undersized guards. There's the ability of an offense to get to wherever they want on the floor. There's the way that lack of length and size reduces the amount of turnovers you generate.

I like the idea of Sexland and Frobley--but I'd trade out of that in a heartbeat if we could get a solid NBA SF and run Garland/Okoro/SF/Mobley/Allen and actually have proper length and athleticism advantages at nearly every position on the floor.

Agreed but it would be criminal to not satisfy our curiosity of seeing how it looks first before trading Sexton lol. Run a line-up of Garland/Okoro/Nance/Mobley/Allen as well and see what happens. Maybe we lose 80-60 but give it a go.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

We have seen NBA teams go small-ball, but never have we seen an undersized pairing of guards be matched by an oversized tandem of centers.

That's good, because the pairing of Allen and Mobley wouldn't be an "oversized tandem of centers" anyway. Mobley isn't a center, much less an "oversized" one. He's a very long, very mobile PF who will be able to contribute defensively in a way most actual "centers" can't.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Agreed but it would be criminal to not satisfy our curiosity of seeing how it looks first before trading Sexton lol. Run a line-up of Garland/Okoro/Nance/Mobley/Allen as well and see what happens. Maybe we lose 80-60 but give it a go.

I didn't mention trading Sexton

My personal opinion is that it's clear what to do with Sexton. He's best utilized as a third guard. He is your primary scorer off the bench, and he handles point guard duties when your starter is resting. The only question is--would Sexton be accepting of this role? Well, if he truly exhibits the personality traits people ascribe to him, then he should be willing to do whatever it takes to help the team win.

I truly think that, the way we talk about "The Manu role" now, it could be "the Sexton role" in the future. I think he has the ability to be absolutely terrific in a defined role like that.

I'd say try him out in that role, and don't be afraid of the internet backlash you get for not maximizing his value as a trade asset--that theoretical value clearly isn't there.

 

[inliner311]

Agreed but it would be criminal to not satisfy our curiosity of seeing how it looks first before trading Sexton lol. Run a line-up of Garland/Okoro/Nance/Mobley/Allen as well and see what happens. Maybe we lose 80-60 but give it a go.

Also the idea that we should be trying to be a traditional team around a unique player like Mobley kind of defeats the purpose of having someone that unique. We should be trying to create match up issues for the opposing teams.

Using our bench to match up and to hide some of the flaws of our top players is really what we should be doing. Teams have lean heavily around wings, which I think we will need a bench full of, but that also means they have less players that can match up against guards and bigs. If they can get Garland to play faster and make it harder for a wing to be on the floor instead of a guard, we might actually have real match up issues for opposing teams.

 

[Lee]

I found this column that makes the argument not to trade him.

Cleveland Cavaliers would be foolish to trade Collin Sexton

The Cleveland Cavaliers are reportedly listening to offers for Collin Sexton but it would be foolish to trade him this summer.

hoopshabit.com

They make the argument that if Mobley is the pick it doesn't make sense to trade Sexton.

We have seen NBA teams go small-ball, but never have we seen an undersized pairing of guards be matched by an oversized tandem of centers. The idea of playing two seven-footers at the same time as two 6’1″ players is a crazy one — yet it is one that could work in their favor. Especially, if Mobley is all he’s hyped up to be. A versatile big-man who can offer defense, playmaking, post-scoring and 3-point shooting is a match made in heaven for this Cavaliers’ team.

The defensive woes of SexLand could be totally covered up by the paint protection and versatility of an Allen/Mobley/Okoro trio. What’s more, Sexton’s role will be simplified as a scorer while Garland and Mobley share playmaking responsibilities.

However, the Cavaliers’ biggest problems will NOT be solved by trading Sexton this summer. This is a squad that recently ranked towards the bottom of the league both offensively and defensively. Trading away the team’s best scorer does not address those issues, it magnifies them.

The bolded part is what I found most interesting because we are getting into some uncharted waters here. Will a pair of undersized guards combined with a pair of 7-footers with good to great movement skills work defensively? According to this guy, it's never been tried.

So first I agree with him. If Sexton gets us a star SF, then lets do a trade, if not, he is too good not to keep.

Not modern NBA, but the 1990 Pistons had 2 small guards, Dumars was in the 6'2 range but not as long armed as Sexton. James Edward started at center and Laimbeer started at PF actually. Then Rodman/Mark Aguaire split starting at SF.

2 defensive specialists and Laimbeer at 6'11. Its been done with a small scoring back court before. It worked too.

Like I said, not modern NBA, but it worked 30 years ago.

In a perfect world my Sexton for Ingram trade goes through, but I am not trading Sexton and NOT getting a borderline all star back. The contract will work itself out, and maybe if we have a player develop Sexton becomes that scoring punch at 20-22 a game from the bench like the Microwave. (I know Vinnie only scored 10, different times).

But if we get Mobley, the roster makes allot more sense if we can keep Allen which i think we will. I wish we could trade for Scottie Barnes without giving up Sexton, but i dont see that happening. And all reports we got from our insiders said they werent looking to GIVE Sexton away, they wanted a good haul IF they trade him, and I agree with that.

 

[Lee]

I didn't mention trading Sexton

My personal opinion is that it's clear what to do with Sexton. He's best utilized as a third guard. He is your primary scorer off the bench, and he handles point guard duties when your starter is resting. The only question is--would Sexton be accepting of this role? Well, if he truly exhibits the personality traits people ascribe to him, then he should be willing to do whatever it takes to help the team win.

I truly think that, the way we talk about "The Manu role" now, it could be "the Sexton role" in the future. I think he has the ability to be absolutely terrific in a defined role like that.

I'd say try him out in that role, and don't be afraid of the internet backlash you get for not maximizing his value as a trade asset--that theoretical value clearly isn't there.

i think that would be a good role for him, but Eric Snow with similar length and stockiness was a good defender, if Sexton can learn to be just average since he does have long arms and a solid base, he could be fine starting too.

Sure I would love Magic at point MJ at SG, Lebron at SF Duncan at PF and Hakeem at center, but most players in the NBA have imperfections and we arent getting that starting 5, lol

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

i think that would be a good role for him, but Eric Snow with similar length and stockiness was a good defender, if Sexton can learn to be just average since he does have long arms and a solid base, he could be fine starting too.

Sure I would love Magic at point MJ at SG, Lebron at SF Duncan at PF and Hakeem at center, but most players in the NBA have imperfections and we arent getting that starting 5, lol

I plan on writing something long post-draft about our outlook going forward, but I always view a complete contending team as having 8 guys. A point guard and a backup point guard. Three wings, two of which can defend NBA SF's, and three bigs.

Sexton cannot be a starting PG--so either he fills that backup role and becomes a tremendous piece--or we move on from him.

Also, people keep talking about Sexton being a goner if we draft Green... I think Green spells doom for Okoro more so than Sexton, unless one of those two can defend SF's.

 

[daddywags]

I plan on writing something long post-draft about our outlook going forward, but I always view a complete contending team as having 8 guys. A point guard and a backup point guard. Three wings, two of which can defend NBA SF's, and three bigs.

Sexton cannot be a starting PG--so either he fills that backup role and becomes a tremendous piece--or we move on from him.

Also, people keep talking about Sexton being a goner if we draft Green... I think Green spells doom for Okoro more so than Sexton, unless one of those two can defend SF's.

Just curious about everyone's meaning of "backup" or "bench player." What exactly does it mean other than that the player isn't on the floor for the opening tip-off and beginning of the second half? Are there minutes limits? Does the backup always sit at the end of close games? Is he not allowed to play with four starters (if all five are healthy)?

I'm not trying to be tricky. I just think that if you told Sexton he wasn't going to be in the starting lineup but he'd be the first guard off the bench, still get his 32-35 mpg, and be on the floor close and late when appropriate, he'd be fine with it. And if he's still scoring 25 ppg efficiently his value should be no lower than it would be if he was introduced with the starters.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Just curious about everyone's meaning of "backup" or "bench player." What exactly does it mean other than that the player isn't on the floor for the opening tip-off and beginning of the second half? Are there minutes limits? Does the backup always sit at the end of close games? Is he not allowed to play with four starters (if all five are healthy)?

I'm not trying to be tricky. I just think that if you told Sexton he wasn't going to be in the starting lineup but he'd be the first guard off the bench, still get his 32-35 mpg, and be on the floor close and late when appropriate, he'd be fine with it. And if he's still scoring 25 ppg efficiently his value should be no lower than it would be if he was introduced with the starters.

To me, it's simple. Your point guard isn't playing 48 minutes. You need someone else who can play the position when he's on the bench.

For someone like Sexton, that likely means still playing starter-level minutes, with some of them at point and some of them at the 2-guard with Garland.