Darius Kinnard Garland

[ryanf]

No. Nice Try again.

Those numbers show his impact on Okoro and Allen's production without Garland on the floor.

The main takeaway, I cant stress enough, is that he negatively impacts the other core building blocks if we're asking him to initiate offense for them, get them involved in the game and conversely, help collectively play team defense. BUT, his strength, scoring, is not impacted no matter who you have on the floor with him.

Thats awesome to see. But only if you put him in the most advantageous position to use that unconscious scoring ability and stop asking him to do something he's not wired to do. This is easier than we're making it. It's just front office ego and PR that we're fighting against now.

i agree with you. the FO and the fans should just stop in the DG vs sexton as lead PG debate. sexton is a 2, that can slide as an emergency 1, but only for emergencies.

this means two important things in the offseason aside from nailing the draft pick, 1) finding a big backup PG is a necessity and 2) allen plays poorly without a good point guard. i will use this argument in the upcoming contract negotiation to justify the 15M per year offer.

 

[Ozone]

i agree with you. the FO and the fans should just stop in the DG vs sexton as lead PG debate. sexton is a 2, that can slide as an emergency 1, but only for emergencies.

this means two important things in the offseason aside from nailing the draft pick, 1) finding a big backup PG is a necessity and 2) allen plays poorly without a good point guard. i will use this argument in the upcoming contract negotiation to justify the 15M per year offer.

I dont know about those fans but my complaint is Garland doesn't do much better than anyone else enough to stop me from thinking an upgrade is coming. It really is not about Sexton vs Garland for me. Sexton is clearly getting better at passing when he has to but the last thing I want is for him to be the point. I want them to get a better pg and even if that seems premature given garland has been ok and is much better after season 2 than season 1 I doubt most teams would have given him the kind of usage he has been given at all.

 

[Benway]

I'm eagerly looking forward to the third season of take-lock.

 

[roozy]

I dont know about those fans but my complaint is Garland doesn't do much better than anyone else enough to stop me from thinking an upgrade is coming. It really is not about Sexton vs Garland for me. Sexton is clearly getting better at passing when he has to but the last thing I want is for him to be the point. I want them to get a better pg and even if that seems premature given garland has been ok and is much better after season 2 than season 1 I doubt most teams would have given him the kind of usage he has been given at all.

It's crazy to me that your complaining about a 2nd year point guard that averaged 18 and 6 in his 2nd season. There is only ONE player that has done that while shooting at least 40% from 3.

 

[Ozone]

It's crazy to me that your complaining about a 2nd year point guard that averaged 18 and 6 in his 2nd season. There is only ONE player that has done that while shooting at least 40% from 3.

What is crazy to me is people looking at stats for the leader of a losing team and claiming success.
He is not that good , it is simply the result of fans wanting the player that is on the team to be good
because they are on the team. I like him he has a really smooth game and plenty of nice playmaking feel.
However there are a lot more attractive options to fit next to Sexton than a small playmaker that does not excel as a defender.

 

[MirORich]

What is crazy to me is people looking at stats for the leader of a losing team and claiming success.
He is not that good , it is simply the result of fans wanting the player that is on the team to be good
because they are on the team. I like him he has a really smooth game and plenty of nice playmaking feel.
However there are a lot more attractive options to fit next to Sexton than a small playmaker that does not excel as a defender.

How is there enough data for anyone to make a definitive claim yet about a clearly improving second year player who has still played under 120 games in the NBA?

And you're moving very dangerously towards one of those no stats matter unless the player is on a winning team.

And then on top of that(and I say this as someone who likes both Sexton and Garland and has no desire to prematurely move on from other of them), how can you demean Garlands stats on a losing team while claiming that Sexton, who's stats are also accumulated on a losing team, is the one that has to be built around. Or simpler put, why are you not judging Sextons stats with the same filter you seem to be using to judge Garlands stats?

Just having a hard time figuring out where you're coming from on this.

 

[ryanf]

What is crazy to me is people looking at stats for the leader of a losing team and claiming success.
He is not that good , it is simply the result of fans wanting the player that is on the team to be good
because they are on the team. I like him he has a really smooth game and plenty of nice playmaking feel.
However there are a lot more attractive options to fit next to Sexton than a small playmaker that does not excel as a defender.

this is why a big backup PG is needed. the offense is good and the defense was awesome when dante exum was playing.

get either of the NYK's FA guards - ntilikina or payton, both are long and young. heck, even normal sized but scrappy tj mcconnell will work wonders.

 

[cabs]

this is why a big backup PG is needed. the offense is good and the defense was awesome when dante exum was playing.

get either of the NYK's FA guards - ntilikina or payton, both are long and young. heck, even normal sized but scrappy tj mcconnell will work wonders.

I'm sure wasn't your intention but this post made it seem like you think Frank/Payton would be better than McConnell

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I watched a full Grizzlies game yesterday for the first time in a long time and I have to say...

@Derek I agree with you, Ja Morant is not as far ahead of Garland as I thought. In fact, he's still got holes in his perimeter game that Garland is starting to round out with Morant's reluctance to let it fly.

As the season went on, I started seeing Garland impacting defense with how he sees the floor off-ball and get's those weakside steals that Morant is really good at, at about the same rate.

The biggest advantage Morant has right now is Brooks next to him playing lock down D on the best perimeter guards so Morant can expend more energy on offense.

 

[ryanf]

I'm sure wasn't your intention but this post made it seem like you think Frank/Payton would be better than McConnell

oh... i like McConnell, and if we're a playoff team i'd have him over the younger guys. i just want to take a flyer on the 2 knicks guards as they still have the potential to be better than what they currently are in a backup role.

 

[Ozone]

How is there enough data for anyone to make a definitive claim yet about a clearly improving second year player who has still played under 120 games in the NBA?

And you're moving very dangerously towards one of those no stats matter unless the player is on a winning team.

And then on top of that(and I say this as someone who likes both Sexton and Garland and has no desire to prematurely move on from other of them), how can you demean Garlands stats on a losing team while claiming that Sexton, who's stats are also accumulated on a losing team, is the one that has to be built around. Or simpler put, why are you not judging Sextons stats with the same filter you seem to be using to judge Garlands stats?

Just having a hard time figuring out where you're coming from on this.

There is not enough data to be convinced of anything, but if you need that much data to make a decision then you are usually left holding the bag when it does not go as planned.
I think he has the potential right now still in his back pocket that makes him an interesting trade piece for lead guard hungry rosters coming off an impressive stats season despite it being on a loser and being empty stats for the most part same as Sexton and everyone else on the Cavs this season.
The point guard has to be held to a higher standard imo and he flat out stunk his rookie season and so the fact he even got the redemption song this season was because he was drafted so high I think anyway .It is great that he did and great that he actually can play the position and give us some hope as a fanbase but I don't see him staying here long term even if they do want him to. He has bail for greener pastures and teaming up with Zion written all over him.
Remember the draft day interview and how he said he was 100%? If that was true it should not have taken him an entire season full of recovery excuses to perform at a pro level.
It is nice to see him playing well in year 2 but tbh he does not look like the same athlete who was dunking in AAU games and so I am leaning towards he has lost that aspect to his game.
100%

 

[BodegaBayCav]

I can.

Garland on, Allen on, Sexton off (382 minutes):
Team ORtg - 108.5
Team DRtg - 114.9
Pace - 97.0
Garland - 27.7 points per 100 poss, 51.6% eFG, 55.4% TS
Okoro - 17.6 points per 100 poss, 49.4% eFG, 53.8% TS
Allen - 26.4 points per 100 poss, 64.6% eFG, 67.8% TS

All year I have felt that DG was the most likely Cav to become a regular all star and the player to build around.

When we added Allen, I felt he is a two way player that will be perfect (rim protection and solid pick and roll player) to pair with DG.

In the last month, I feel that Okoro is now, likely to be the best of the current Cavs players. His two way game is exceptional for a young player. His recent offense improvements are exciting.

Sexton has a rare and valuable skill, scoring with a high effective shooting percentage. However, while he has shown some improvement, he is substandard in almost every other basketball related skill. The biggest problem is his floor awareness. Both on offense and defense, he just doesn't see the game well.

I hope the Cavs realize that the most important players to build around are DG, Allen, and Okoro. The stats that Derek posted seem to indicate this.

Finally, I think the player that DG reminds me of most is a young Steve Nash.
If you are interested, here are Nash's Nba Stats. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html

Season	Age	Team	Lg	Pos	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1996-97	22	PHO	NBA	PG	65	2	10.5	1.1	2.7	.423	0.4	0.8	.418	0.8	1.8	.425	.489	0.6	0.8	.824	0.2	0.7	1.0	2.1	0.3	0.0	1.0	1.4	3.3
1997-98	23	PHO	NBA	PG	76	9	21.9	3.5	7.7	.459	1.1	2.6	.415	2.5	5.1	.481	.528	1.0	1.1	.860	0.4	1.7	2.1	3.4	0.8	0.1	1.3	1.9	9.1
1998-99	24	DAL	NBA	PG	40	40	31.7	2.9	7.9	.363	1.2	3.3	.374	1.6	4.6	.355	.441	1.0	1.2	.826	0.8	2.1	2.9	5.5	0.9	0.1	2.1	2.5	7.9
1999-00	25	DAL	NBA	PG	56	27	27.4	3.1	6.5	.477	1.1	2.7	.403	2.0	3.8	.528	.559	1.3	1.5	.882	0.6	1.6	2.2	4.9	0.7	0.1	1.8	2.2	8.6
2000-01	26	DAL	NBA	PG	70	70	34.1	5.5	11.3	.487	1.3	3.1	.406	4.2	8.2	.518	.544	3.3	3.7	.895	0.7	2.5	3.2	7.3	1.0	0.1	2.9	2.3	15.6
2001-02	27	DAL	NBA	PG	82	82	34.6	6.4	13.3	.483	1.9	4.2	.455	4.5	9.1	.495	.554	3.2	3.6	.887	0.6	2.5	3.1	7.7	0.6	0.0	2.8	2.0	17.9
2002-03	28	DAL	NBA	PG	82	82	33.1	6.3	13.6	.465	1.4	3.3	.413	5.0	10.3	.482	.515	3.8	4.1	.909	0.8	2.1	2.9	7.3	1.0	0.1	2.3	1.6	17.7
2003-04	29	DAL	NBA	PG	78	78	33.5	5.1	10.8	.470	1.3	3.3	.405	3.8	7.5	.498	.531	2.9	3.2	.916	0.8	2.2	3.0	8.8	0.9	0.1	2.7	1.8	14.5
2004-05	30	PHO	NBA	PG	75	75	34.3	5.7	11.4	.502	1.3	2.9	.431	4.5	8.5	.526	.557	2.8	3.2	.887	0.8	2.6	3.3	11.5	1.0	0.1	3.3	1.8	15.5
2005-06	31	PHO	NBA	PG	79	79	35.4	6.8	13.4	.512	1.9	4.3	.439	4.9	9.0	.548	.583	3.3	3.5	.921	0.6	3.6	4.2	10.5	0.8	0.2	3.5	1.5	18.8
2006-07	32	PHO	NBA	PG	76	76	35.3	6.8	12.8	.532	2.1	4.5	.455	4.8	8.3	.575	.613	2.9	3.3	.899	0.4	3.1	3.5	11.6	0.8	0.1	3.8	1.5	18.6
2007-08	33	PHO	NBA	PG	81	81	34.3	6.0	11.9	.504	2.2	4.7	.470	3.8	7.2	.527	.597	2.7	3.0	.906	0.3	3.1	3.5	11.1	0.7	0.1	3.6	1.4	16.9
2008-09	34	PHO	NBA	PG	74	74	33.6	5.8	11.5	.503	1.5	3.3	.439	4.3	8.2	.529	.566	2.6	2.8	.933	0.3	2.8	3.0	9.7	0.7	0.1	3.4	1.5	15.7
2009-10	35	PHO	NBA	PG	81	81	32.8	6.2	12.2	.507	1.5	3.6	.426	4.6	8.6	.540	.570	2.6	2.8	.938	0.4	2.9	3.3	11.0	0.5	0.1	3.6	1.3	16.5
2010-11	36	PHO	NBA	PG	75	75	33.3	5.3	10.8	.492	1.1	2.7	.395	4.2	8.1	.525	.542	3.0	3.3	.912	0.5	2.9	3.5	11.4	0.6	0.1	3.5	1.2	14.7
2011-12	37	PHO	NBA	PG	62	62	31.6	4.8	9.0	.532	0.9	2.3	.390	3.9	6.7	.580	.581	2.0	2.3	.894	0.4	2.6	3.0	10.7	0.6	0.1	3.7	0.9	12.5
2012-13	38	LAL	NBA	PG	50	50	32.5	4.7	9.5	.497	1.1	2.6	.438	3.6	6.9	.519	.557	2.1	2.3	.922	0.5	2.3	2.8	6.7	0.6	0.1	2.5	1.4	12.7
2013-14	39	LAL	NBA	PG	15	10	20.9	2.4	6.3	.383	0.5	1.6	.333	1.9	4.7	.400	.426	1.5	1.6	.917	0.3	1.7	1.9	5.7	0.5	0.1	2.1	1.2	6.8
Career			NBA		1217	1053	31.3	5.2	10.6	.490	1.4	3.2	.428	3.8	7.4	.518	.556	2.5	2.8	.904	0.5	2.5	3.0	8.5	0.7	0.1	2.9	1.6	14.3
10 seasons		PHO	NBA		744	614	30.6	5.3	10.5	.504	1.4	3.2	.435	3.9	7.2	.535	.571	2.4	2.7	.907	0.4	2.6	3.1	9.4	0.7	0.1	3.1	1.5	14.4
6 seasons		DAL	NBA		408	379	32.7	5.2	11.1	.468	1.4	3.4	.416	3.8	7.7	.490	.531	2.8	3.1	.898	0.7	2.2	2.9	7.2	0.9	0.1	2.5	2.0	14.6
2 seasons		LAL	NBA		65	60	29.8	4.2	8.8	.478	1.0	2.4	.422	3.2	6.4	.499	.535	2.0	2.2	.921	0.5	2.2	2.6	6.4	0.6	0.1	2.4	1.4	11.4

​

 

[Lee]

It's crazy to me that your complaining about a 2nd year point guard that averaged 18 and 6 in his 2nd season. There is only ONE player that has done that while shooting at least 40% from 3.

Ever? Really? Garland is the only 18/6 on 40% from 3 sophomore ever?

 

[Ozone]

I don't think any of the Cavs current players are the level of gamer that you "build around" in fact I think all of them at best are complimentary rotation borderline starter level players in their primes on a team that can contend with the best outcomes returned later on if they are all still on the roster. Garland is a high iq but unfortunately injury prone already and will be fools gold to build around in fact I would say they are fools if they don't trade him before he goes down for the season again because it will happen.

 

[Lee]

All year I have felt that DG was the most likely Cav to become a regular all star and the player to build around.

When we added Allen, I felt he is a two way player that will be perfect (rim protection and solid pick and roll player) to pair with DG.

In the last month, I feel that Okoro is now, likely to be the best of the current Cavs players. His two way game is exceptional for a young player. His recent offense improvements are exciting.

Sexton has a rare and valuable skill, scoring with a high effective shooting percentage. However, while he has shown some improvement, he is substandard in almost every other basketball related skill. The biggest problem is his floor awareness. Both on offense and defense, he just doesn't see the game well.

I hope the Cavs realize that the most important players to build around are DG, Allen, and Okoro. The stats that Derek posted seem to indicate this.

Finally, I think the player that DG reminds me of most is a young Steve Nash.
If you are interested, here are Nash's Nba Stats. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html

Season	Age	Team	Lg	Pos	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1996-97	22	PHO	NBA	PG	65	2	10.5	1.1	2.7	.423	0.4	0.8	.418	0.8	1.8	.425	.489	0.6	0.8	.824	0.2	0.7	1.0	2.1	0.3	0.0	1.0	1.4	3.3
1997-98	23	PHO	NBA	PG	76	9	21.9	3.5	7.7	.459	1.1	2.6	.415	2.5	5.1	.481	.528	1.0	1.1	.860	0.4	1.7	2.1	3.4	0.8	0.1	1.3	1.9	9.1
1998-99	24	DAL	NBA	PG	40	40	31.7	2.9	7.9	.363	1.2	3.3	.374	1.6	4.6	.355	.441	1.0	1.2	.826	0.8	2.1	2.9	5.5	0.9	0.1	2.1	2.5	7.9
1999-00	25	DAL	NBA	PG	56	27	27.4	3.1	6.5	.477	1.1	2.7	.403	2.0	3.8	.528	.559	1.3	1.5	.882	0.6	1.6	2.2	4.9	0.7	0.1	1.8	2.2	8.6
2000-01	26	DAL	NBA	PG	70	70	34.1	5.5	11.3	.487	1.3	3.1	.406	4.2	8.2	.518	.544	3.3	3.7	.895	0.7	2.5	3.2	7.3	1.0	0.1	2.9	2.3	15.6
2001-02	27	DAL	NBA	PG	82	82	34.6	6.4	13.3	.483	1.9	4.2	.455	4.5	9.1	.495	.554	3.2	3.6	.887	0.6	2.5	3.1	7.7	0.6	0.0	2.8	2.0	17.9
2002-03	28	DAL	NBA	PG	82	82	33.1	6.3	13.6	.465	1.4	3.3	.413	5.0	10.3	.482	.515	3.8	4.1	.909	0.8	2.1	2.9	7.3	1.0	0.1	2.3	1.6	17.7
2003-04	29	DAL	NBA	PG	78	78	33.5	5.1	10.8	.470	1.3	3.3	.405	3.8	7.5	.498	.531	2.9	3.2	.916	0.8	2.2	3.0	8.8	0.9	0.1	2.7	1.8	14.5
2004-05	30	PHO	NBA	PG	75	75	34.3	5.7	11.4	.502	1.3	2.9	.431	4.5	8.5	.526	.557	2.8	3.2	.887	0.8	2.6	3.3	11.5	1.0	0.1	3.3	1.8	15.5
2005-06	31	PHO	NBA	PG	79	79	35.4	6.8	13.4	.512	1.9	4.3	.439	4.9	9.0	.548	.583	3.3	3.5	.921	0.6	3.6	4.2	10.5	0.8	0.2	3.5	1.5	18.8
2006-07	32	PHO	NBA	PG	76	76	35.3	6.8	12.8	.532	2.1	4.5	.455	4.8	8.3	.575	.613	2.9	3.3	.899	0.4	3.1	3.5	11.6	0.8	0.1	3.8	1.5	18.6
2007-08	33	PHO	NBA	PG	81	81	34.3	6.0	11.9	.504	2.2	4.7	.470	3.8	7.2	.527	.597	2.7	3.0	.906	0.3	3.1	3.5	11.1	0.7	0.1	3.6	1.4	16.9
2008-09	34	PHO	NBA	PG	74	74	33.6	5.8	11.5	.503	1.5	3.3	.439	4.3	8.2	.529	.566	2.6	2.8	.933	0.3	2.8	3.0	9.7	0.7	0.1	3.4	1.5	15.7
2009-10	35	PHO	NBA	PG	81	81	32.8	6.2	12.2	.507	1.5	3.6	.426	4.6	8.6	.540	.570	2.6	2.8	.938	0.4	2.9	3.3	11.0	0.5	0.1	3.6	1.3	16.5
2010-11	36	PHO	NBA	PG	75	75	33.3	5.3	10.8	.492	1.1	2.7	.395	4.2	8.1	.525	.542	3.0	3.3	.912	0.5	2.9	3.5	11.4	0.6	0.1	3.5	1.2	14.7
2011-12	37	PHO	NBA	PG	62	62	31.6	4.8	9.0	.532	0.9	2.3	.390	3.9	6.7	.580	.581	2.0	2.3	.894	0.4	2.6	3.0	10.7	0.6	0.1	3.7	0.9	12.5
2012-13	38	LAL	NBA	PG	50	50	32.5	4.7	9.5	.497	1.1	2.6	.438	3.6	6.9	.519	.557	2.1	2.3	.922	0.5	2.3	2.8	6.7	0.6	0.1	2.5	1.4	12.7
2013-14	39	LAL	NBA	PG	15	10	20.9	2.4	6.3	.383	0.5	1.6	.333	1.9	4.7	.400	.426	1.5	1.6	.917	0.3	1.7	1.9	5.7	0.5	0.1	2.1	1.2	6.8
Career			NBA		1217	1053	31.3	5.2	10.6	.490	1.4	3.2	.428	3.8	7.4	.518	.556	2.5	2.8	.904	0.5	2.5	3.0	8.5	0.7	0.1	2.9	1.6	14.3
10 seasons		PHO	NBA		744	614	30.6	5.3	10.5	.504	1.4	3.2	.435	3.9	7.2	.535	.571	2.4	2.7	.907	0.4	2.6	3.1	9.4	0.7	0.1	3.1	1.5	14.4
6 seasons		DAL	NBA		408	379	32.7	5.2	11.1	.468	1.4	3.4	.416	3.8	7.7	.490	.531	2.8	3.1	.898	0.7	2.2	2.9	7.2	0.9	0.1	2.5	2.0	14.6
2 seasons		LAL	NBA		65	60	29.8	4.2	8.8	.478	1.0	2.4	.422	3.2	6.4	.499	.535	2.0	2.2	.921	0.5	2.2	2.6	6.4	0.6	0.1	2.4	1.4	11.4

​

I dont quite see Nash, but i do like Garland allot.

Nash played 4 years of college and was a late developer. Nash was also a better shooter than DG from the jump and one of the worst defenders I have ever seen, I think Garland can become a decent defender for his size, the effort is there and he has the athletic ability to defend pg's.

I dont see the comparison, but its not a knock against Nash or Garland, just different players.

Garland has great handles and good vision. If he develops into more of a killer in crunch time, i see Lillard. But only if he develops that killer instinct. In general play comparisons are difficult.