Darius Kinnard Garland

[weepinwillow]

I always look these numbers here

2021-22 Cleveland Cavaliers On/Off | Basketball-Reference.com

On/Off Team Statistics

www.basketball-reference.com

but Garland on and off ORTG numbers don't make any sense. Especially the OFF numbers, they are abnormally low and don't correlate with the ON numbers of the players that take up the minutes when Garland is off the floor.

that Nembhard/Tako pairing, though.

 

[bs80]

ORTG with him on is 122.1
ORTG with him off is 101.1

DRTG with him on is 113.4
DRTG with him off is 108.1

It’s all on basketball reference.

Thanks bro. So this begs the question given some of the takes on Darius that we have seen here. Do these numbers indicate that Garland has been good for our offense thus far, or do we chalk it up to small sample size? The sample size definitely is small, but that ORtg discrepancy with him on and off is pretty damn sizeable.

IMO, the idea that Garland is wasting possessions by dribbling around aimlessly and yet our offensive efficiency is so much greater with him on the floor just does not compute. I feel that despite the sample size, Darius is still a huge positive cog in our offense and that the takes out there that are trashing him are so overblown.

 

[weepinwillow]

Thanks bro. So this begs the question given some of the takes on Darius that we have seen here. Do these numbers indicate that Garland has been good for our offense thus far, or do we chalk it up to small sample size? The sample size definitely is small, but that ORtg discrepancy with him on and off is pretty damn sizeable.

IMO, the idea that Garland is wasting possessions by dribbling around aimlessly and yet our offensive efficiency is so much greater with him on the floor just does not compute. I feel that despite the sample size, Darius is still a huge positive cog in our offense and that the takes out there that are trashing him are so overblown.

I don't get the "aimless dribble" take anyway. It's not aimless, though it may be over used and he can over penetrate without a good outlet.

 

[Lee]

Thanks bro. So this begs the question given some of the takes on Darius that we have seen here. Do these numbers indicate that Garland has been good for our offense thus far, or do we chalk it up to small sample size? The sample size definitely is small, but that ORtg discrepancy with him on and off is pretty damn sizeable.

IMO, the idea that Garland is wasting possessions by dribbling around aimlessly and yet our offensive efficiency is so much greater with him on the floor just does not compute. I feel that despite the sample size, Darius is still a huge positive cog in our offense and that the takes out there that are trashing him are so overblown.

I think its a bit of both. I dont argue with aimless dribble because thats not what i see, but he has been the main facilitator by far when he is on and Rubio is off, which is by design.

Everyone thinks its Sexton OR Garland, but the first time i truly see where they both can work. Garland has been playing to his strength of ball handling and play making, Sexton has been doing what he does best...score....and Joining Mobley to Allen gives us 2 true rim protectors.

In theory several of us thought for this to work we needed 2 rim protectors to protect the midget back court....Well we are finding out if that works. I like the experiment so far....we are always going to get more out of both of them keeping and developing them than trading 2 players that the league devalues because of size..

 

[buzzdog]

This is totally untrue. Dribbles aimlessly with no real plan or purpose? Gets stuck in the air with nowhere to go half the time?

Please.

This is the guy Draymond Green said is his least favorite player to try and guard.

Do you watch the games? Are you in denial of what you see with your own eyes?

 

[buzzdog]

He absolutely does get stuck in the air with no where to go pretty frequently. Seems to have been at least a few times a game.

Not so sure I would put too much stock in what Draymond says because we see the actual evidence on the court every single night.

If he is hoisting and hitting his 3's, yeah he is difficult to guard, because that changes the entire game.

When he's not, defenders routinely give him a moderate amount of space, rendering all his fancy dribbling useless.

You are correct sir.

Now I don't anticipate this being the norm. But Garland needs to play a lot better, regardless of what his defenders might think.

 

[bs80]

I think its a bit of both. I dont argue with aimless dribble because thats not what i see, but he has been the main facilitator by far when he is on and Rubio is off, which is by design.

Everyone thinks its Sexton OR Garland, but the first time i truly see where they both can work. Garland has been playing to his strength of ball handling and play making, Sexton has been doing what he does best...score....and Joining Mobley to Allen gives us 2 true rim protectors.

In theory several of us thought for this to work we needed 2 rim protectors to protect the midget back court....Well we are finding out if that works. I like the experiment so far....we are always going to get more out of both of them keeping and developing them than trading 2 players that the league devalues because of size..

Yeah absolutely! One of my top few takeaways from the young season is that despite how much we all may think that Sexland has been, and in theory should continue to be a disaster, the numbers in the limited sample set we have so far have been very encouraging. I posted this somewhere else, but in 40 minutes logged on the floor together, Sexland has a ORtg/DRtg/NetRtg of 115.5/108.2/+7.2.

The Camp Collin vs Camp Darius war really bums me out. I love both of these dudes, and still believe that both have so much more room to grow. I totally understand the rationale behind shopping either of them, but I don't think we should be desperate to split them up. If we can move either of them for a piece that fits our roster like a glove then as a Cavs fan I'm all for it. But both fall into the solid to good NBA player range with room to grow, and contrary to common belief, are not a disaster when on the floor together.

 

[buzzdog]

Garland starts dribbling and the ball stops moving. I hate that kind of offense.

 

[bs80]

Garland starts dribbling and the ball stops moving. I hate that kind of offense.

Honestly, I bet that could be said about every primary ball handler on any team. The ball moves most quickly on passes. Maybe it's not aesthetically pleasing or otherwise acceptable to some eyes, but I believe that somehow it is working.

Small sample set or not, a ORtg on/off split as lopsided as Garland's (122.8/101.8) is almost impossible if Darius is actually hurting the offense. He's had some memorable turnovers this season that have made me want to pull my fucking hair out, but in the 63 minutes that he's been out there for us (just about a third of our total minutes this season), our offense has been almost 20% more efficient. Given the evidence, it is highly highly unlikely that Garland has not made us a better offense in his 63 minutes on the floor.

 

[weepinwillow]

Honestly, I bet that could be said about every primary ball handler on any team. The ball moves most quickly on passes. Maybe it's not aesthetically pleasing or otherwise acceptable to some eyes, but I believe that somehow it is working.

Small sample set or not, a ORtg on/off split as lopsided as Garland's (122.8/101.8) is almost impossible if Darius is actually hurting the offense. He's had some memorable turnovers this season that have made me want to pull my fucking hair out, but in the 63 minutes that he's been out there for us (just about a third of our total minutes this season), our offense has been almost 20% more efficient. Given the evidence, it is highly highly unlikely that Garland has not made us a better offense in his 63 minutes on the floor.

Garland over-dribbling is a legit complaint. Rubio can do it at times too, though neither really break the offensive set by and large when they get the ball. The motor of the offense is that pick and roll with either Darius or Rubio making the decision in the lane.
Adding the Chris Paul/Steve Nash foul line J would open up a bunch of other looks for his teammates as it would pull defenders off the lob, sometimes he chooses not to take that in favor of penetrating more than he needs to.

 

[Adam]

Garland over dribbling is less of an issue than him over passing. If he had taken more shots yesterday we would have scored a lot more points. He either needs to call his own number a bit more or we need to runs some sets with him as the primary scoring option

 

[Heat Check]

Garland can do stuff, but he needs to realize he doesn't need to dribble the ball 10 times before doing it.

 

[Lee]

Do you watch the games? Are you in denial of what you see with your own eyes?

He had 2 bad offensive series in the 4th, i was counting because of your hate for Garland, but Sexton had one himself.

Garland is a far better ball handler, but he is a young pg who makes mistakes. He is learning. In no way will Sexton ever learn to be a top 10 pg, but Sexton is an amazing scorer. They have their roles, i am starting to believe with the way our team is constructed, they both can work together.

 

[Lee]

Garland over dribbling is less of an issue than him over passing. If he had taken more shots yesterday we would have scored a lot more points. He either needs to call his own number a bit more or we need to runs some sets with him as the primary scoring option

He was trying to take advantage of mismatches, I think our coaching staff wants him to recognize how to be a floor general which will lead to mistakes. These mistakes need to happen so he can learn, but i see it too, just only way to learn for a young pg.

Garland will learn, he has the makings of an excellent pg, but it will take a couple of years. Patience is key with young players and we have a bunch of them, all with talent to play too.

 

[Derek]

Garland starts dribbling and the ball stops moving. I hate that kind of offense.

This just isn’t the reality of what’s happening on the court.

Our ball movement has been excellent with Garland on the floor (similar to how it is when Rubio runs the show).

We have undoubtedly played our best basketball this year with Garland on the floor. I’m not ready to determine correlation, causation, or whether any of it is sustainable, but you keep saying he’s killing us out there and it just isn’t true.