Game Thread | 2021-2022 Season | Game #15 | Celtics @ Cavs | Nov. 15

[Rich]

Tell Rich that

We have the most impactful rookie we've drafted since LeBron on the team currently.

Yes, he's more impactful than Kyrie was as a rookie. He's the leading candidate for rookie of the year. And this is the best the team has looked w/o LeBron in basically forever.


And you've done nothing but shit on the kid in his thread daily.


Explain that in a way that isn't explained by you trolling just to troll?

 

[Dr. Claw]

stating the obvious: that's a W with Tower City fully in place, at the very least. Add one of Lauri, Love, or Sexton and that's a blow out.

Boston, with emphasis, ain't shit at their optimal rotation.

Now, I hope the Evan injury is not serious.

Right in time for perhaps the most bullshit stretch of the early season. Nets x2, Suns, and That Team From San Francisco

 

[cabs]

ugh why did Valentine have to step out of bounds, really could have won it from there

 

[2 For The Brew]

I'm not gonna have this fight with you.

You dislike Windler for no other reason than the board is down on Okoro and you like Okoro and Windler threatens Okoro's role.


Windler makes positive contributions every time he gets to play. That's it.

I dislike Windler because he has not shown he can hang in the NBA and he’s relatively old. He gets dominated by physically strong opponents and hesitates far too often when he has a shot.

His ability to hit a high percentage of threes doesn’t matter in many games because he doesn’t get the shots off or can’t get open. Cedi gets open and plays D. Wade can defend big forwards.

Windler has been overhyped. I felt the same way about Zizic, who wasn’t very good but people took his per 36 minutes from garbage time and extrapolated that. Windler’s stats have been against bench players; I honestly think that if he was put up against starters he’d get crushed.

I actually hope he does better and proves me wrong because we could use a good wing of course but I just don’t see it.

When we got Stauskas there was enthusiasm because we needed shooting, but I saw him play for the Sixers and he was not a good shooter - if he was, they would have kept him as they really needed shooting (still do). Windler has a higher percentage but put any halfway decent defender anywhere near him and he won’t shoot.

As for Windler “threatening” Okoro’s role - I can’t take that comment seriously. Windler is behind Stevens and Valentine, neither of whom are any threat to move ahead of Okoro. How many games has Windler played more minutes than Okoro?

Let me know when someone the caliber of Jimmy Butler praises Windler like Jimmy did Isaac.

Isaac is the better NBA player and it’s not close. If you want to believe the reverse is true and it’s just JBB and me who are complete idiots, go ahead. We‘ll see who has the better career.

 

[buzzdog]

You're just blatantly denying facts now. Welcome to the ignore list.

Welcome to the club, he's been on my ignore for a long time.

 

[Rich]

I dislike Windler because he has not shown he can hang in the NBA and he’s relatively old. He gets dominated by physically strong opponents and hesitates far too often when he has a shot.

His ability to hit a high percentage of threes doesn’t matter in many games because he doesn’t get the shots off or can’t get open. Cedi gets open and plays D. Wade can defend big forwards.

Windler has been overhyped. I felt the same way about Zizic, who wasn’t very good but people took his per 36 minutes from garbage time and extrapolated that. Windler’s stats have been against bench players; I honestly think that if he was put up against starters he’d get crushed.

I actually hope he does better and proves me wrong because we could use a good wing of course but I just don’t see it.

When we got Stauskas there was enthusiasm because we needed shooting, but I saw him play for the Sixers and he was not a good shooter - if he was, they would have kept him as they really needed shooting (still do). Windler has a higher percentage but put any halfway decent defender anywhere near him and he won’t shoot.

As for Windler “threatening” Okoro’s role - I can’t take that comment seriously. Windler is behind Stevens and Valentine, neither of whom are any threat to move ahead of Okoro. How many games has Windler played more minutes than Okoro?

Let me know when someone the caliber of Jimmy Butler praises Windler like Jimmy did Isaac.

Isaac is the better NBA player and it’s not close. If you want to believe the reverse is true and it’s just JBB and me who are complete idiots, go ahead. We‘ll see who has the better career.

Other than being old I feel like I could type those things about Okoro, only with the bonus that even when open he can't make a shot.

 

[buzzdog]

We almost beat the Celts with a few starters and the back half of the bench. If Valentine had a little more situational awareness we had that game.

All in all I have to at least declare a moral victory. How long before we start getting some bodies back?

 

[cavsfever]

Dean Wade zero points in 35 minutes. No assists, no blocks, no steals, no offensive rebounds… 8 defensive rebounds, that’s it. How does that happen?

 

[Man Called X]

Since Valentine is now part of the rotation, I will no longer be watching the shitshow that is the Cavaliers. Prepare for a 20 game losing streak. It's coming.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Since Valentine is now part of the rotation, I will no longer be watching the shitshow that is the Cavaliers. Prepare for a 20 game losing streak. It's coming.

20-game losing streak? I don't think so.

Evan Mobley was taken out of the game last night due to injury with 11:04 remaining. At that point the Cavs were behind by 7 points. The rest of the game was played by six guys; Wade, Okoro, Garland, Rubio, Osman, and Valentine, with the exception of two minutes by Tako Fall. That's a power forward, two small forwards, and three guards. Our top four big men were all out and our third string power forward was playing center. With no rim protection the Celtics made four layups in the final six minutes, three of them by Smart and Schroder.

Despite being severely outmanned the Cavs played the Celtics even over the last 11 minutes, actually outscoring them by a point with four starters out.

The Celtics are 7-7. They're an average NBA team. But down three starters the entire game and with Mobley playing out of position and held to 1 point in 29 minutes, the Cavs still took the Celtics down to the final minute before the outcome was decided.

The Cavs may have a losing streak because right now Mobley has an elbow sprain while Love and Markkanen aren't ready to play yet and Sexton is out. That's three starters and Love, plus the schedule is brutal over the next four games. I can see a 5-game losing streak, but nowhere near 20.

By the way, in these two games against the Celtics Valentine played 45 minutes. In those 45 minutes the Cavs outscored the Celtics by 5 points. He helped the team. He didn't make them a "shitshow". In fact, to describe the Cavaliers as a "shitshow" after seeing them battle back to win from 19 points down late in the third quarter (with Valentine on the floor) and then taking the Celtics down to the final minute with four starters out two nights later is something I just can't understand.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

This guy...

and this guy

Is the JBB Equivalent to Mike Brown's this guy...

and this guy

 

[Man Called X]

20-game losing streak? I don't think so.

Evan Mobley was taken out of the game last night due to injury with 11:04 remaining. At that point the Cavs were behind by 7 points. The rest of the game was played by six guys; Wade, Okoro, Garland, Rubio, Osman, and Valentine, with the exception of two minutes by Tako Fall. That's a power forward, two small forwards, and three guards. Our top four big men were all out and our third string power forward was playing center. With no rim protection the Celtics made four layups in the final six minutes, three of them by Smart and Schroder.

Despite being severely outmanned the Cavs played the Celtics even over the last 11 minutes, actually outscoring them by a point with four starters out.

The Celtics are 7-7. They're an average NBA team. But down three starters the entire game and with Mobley playing out of position and held to 1 point in 29 minutes, the Cavs still took the Celtics down to the final minute before the outcome was decided.

The Cavs may have a losing streak because right now Mobley has an elbow sprain while Love and Markkanen aren't ready to play yet and Sexton is out. That's three starters and Love, plus the schedule is brutal over the next four games. I can see a 5-game losing streak, but nowhere near 20.

By the way, in these two games against the Celtics Valentine played 45 minutes. In those 45 minutes the Cavs outscored the Celtics by 5 points. He helped the team. He didn't make them a "shitshow". In fact, to describe the Cavaliers as a "shitshow" after seeing them battle back to win from 19 points down late in the third quarter (with Valentine on the floor) and then taking the Celtics down to the final minute with four starters out two nights later is something I just can't understand.

What I saw was a team that couldn't defend whatsoever for 11 minutes. I saw coach running a shit player minutes as if he was some defensive stopper. I saw that same player make another one of his patented stupid moves to cost us a chance at victory. I'm a hell of a lot more vested in seeing Windler play minutes at the 2 instead of fucking Valentine. We're willing to run Okoro's ass 30 minutes a game for multiple games when he does nothing, but Windler is lucky to get more than 10 minutes a game. If you're going to force feed developmental minutes, he should have a shot over a minimum contract barely hanging in the league. But apparently Windler is only allowed to play the 3/4 rather than a 2/3. The same way we miscast Osman early in his career by having him bulk up to play backup 4.

I think you underestimate just how terrible Denzel Valentine is. Pointing out his +/- on a two game stretch is just further proof that even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

As for Mobley, I seriously question a team that's been notorious about keeping injuries a secret and how he was handled last game. Banging your elbow/hitting your funny bone is now an elbow sprain? The fact that he shot 0/11 makes me wonder if something wasn't bothering him from the very beginning.

I see an easy 4 losses in a row coming. I barely see us winning 5 games in the month of the December. The defense is sustainable, our shit offensive production isn't. If Mobley is out any extended time, we're beyond fucked.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

What I saw was a team that couldn't defend whatsoever for 11 minutes. I saw coach running a shit player minutes as if he was some defensive stopper. I saw that same player make another one of his patented stupid moves to cost us a chance at victory. I'm a hell of a lot more vested in seeing Windler play minutes at the 2 instead of fucking Valentine. We're willing to run Okoro's ass 30 minutes a game for multiple games when he does nothing, but Windler is lucky to get more than 10 minutes a game. If you're going to force feed developmental minutes, he should have a shot over a minimum contract barely hanging in the league. But apparently Windler is only allowed to play the 3/4 rather than a 2/3. The same way we miscast Osman early in his career by having him bulk up to play backup 4.

I think you underestimate just how terrible Denzel Valentine is. Pointing out his +/- on a two game stretch is just further proof that even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

As for Mobley, I seriously question a team that's been notorious about keeping injuries a secret and how he was handled last game. Banging your elbow/hitting your funny bone is now an elbow sprain? The fact that he shot 0/11 makes me wonder if something wasn't bothering him from the very beginning.

I see an easy 4 losses in a row coming. I barely see us winning 5 games in the month of the December. The defense is sustainable, our shit offensive production isn't. If Mobley is out any extended time, we're beyond fucked.

Woke up feeling optimistic and willing to attribute what I've seen over the past 4-5 games to injuries but there's this nagging pit in my stomach that recognizes our offense has digressed all season to Mike Brown levels (save a career offensive savant in Rubio) and the substitutions/rotations are so reminiscent of Mike Brown that I know the whole "they battled" and "they played hard" will not be sustainable through this offensive ineptitude.

@Man Called X summed up what the pit in my stomach is feeling exactly

So much lends itself to bad coaching on the offensive end of the floor. Okoro had a whole summer to address and develop his weaknesses and he came back even worse at offense and bulked up like we asked him to be even more defensively versatile. Mobley has actually had a bad 2-3 games where he's pressing on the offensive end, and instead of making the game easier for him last night by putting him in position to use his length/speed against Horford and the small Celtics, we asked him to post up a guy 50 pounds and 14 experienced playoff years his senior. Rotational over reliance on defensive "effort" guys (Stevens/Valentine) instead of taking offensive talent who helps balance the floor and is smart as a 4th/5th starter (Windler), and coaching him up to be whatever you dont think he is on defense.

I don't want to sit through another era of coaching malpractice with a coach who only prioritizes one end of the floor because he can't see the game but through a defensive effort lens.

This Nets and Warriors two game stretch could be a MAJOR crossroads for the way this team develops. Please stop this overreliance on Rubio being the entire offense and put priority on BOTH ends of the floor

 

[sailfish]

What's with all the negativity?? The Cavs lost one game and still sit at 9-6, FAR better than any of us expected at the beginning of the season, especially given the difficulty of their schedule to start. They've been competitive in every game and won games that, quite frankly, defy the stats & logic.

I still believe this is a playoff team, as long as Mobley, Garland, & Rubio remain healthy. We can withstand & have withstood injuries to other players already. This team play hard, they play smart, & they play together and they're an absolute joy to watch.

 

[Man Called X]

Woke up feeling optimistic and willing to attribute what I've seen over the past 4-5 games to injuries but there's this nagging pit in my stomach that recognizes our offense has digressed all season to Mike Brown levels (save a career offensive savant in Rubio) and the substitutions/rotations are so reminiscent of Mike Brown that I know the whole "they battled" and "they played hard" will not be sustainable through this offensive ineptitude.

@Man Called X summed up what the pit in my stomach is feeling exactly

So much lends itself to bad coaching on the offensive end of the floor. Okoro had a whole summer to address and develop his weaknesses and he came back even worse at offense and bulked up like we asked him to be even more defensively versatile. Mobley has actually had a bad 2-3 games where he's pressing on the offensive end, and instead of making the game easier for him last night by putting him in position to use his length/speed against Horford and the small Celtics, we asked him to post up a guy 50 pounds and 14 experienced playoff years his senior. Rotational over reliance on defensive "effort" guys (Stevens/Valentine) instead of taking offensive talent who helps balance the floor and is smart as a 4th/5th starter (Windler), and coaching him up to be whatever you dont think he is on defense.

I don't want to sit through another era of coaching malpractice with a coach who only prioritizes one end of the floor because he can't see the game but through a defensive effort lens.

This Nets and Warriors two game stretch could be a MAJOR crossroads for the way this team develops. Please stop this overreliance on Rubio being the entire offense and put priority on BOTH ends of the floor

This team is a wing and a good coach away from being something. And we could probably get by without the wing with a better coach.

But expecting Rubio/Garland to just be the man isn't a sustainable game plan. It's just not. You've got a guy on the bench that's used to running off screens and shooting, instead he gets the ball on swing arounds in the few minutes he plays. I'm not saying Windler is Klay Thompson, but Windler had a Klay Thompson skill set coming out of college and we're trying to play him as a stationary 3/D wing. Get the kid running with cuts and off of screens. Put players in positions to succeed, not set them up to fail.