Jarrett Allen: Nice Head of Hair

[WorldFreeB]

I do like this kid and think he does have upside as he adds strength and works on his game. I like the idea of him and Hart being a long term two headed monster for the Cavs. Still... doesn't look like a guy who will become an outside shooting threat and though strength may help, not sure he will ever have good hands. Frankly, I think Hart may have overall more upside. If I can only do one, I'd rather lock up Hart at a much cheaper long term contract than throw big money at Jarrett.

6 Months ago I would have said you are crazy,,but I don't think I disagree with you.
Allen has to get stronger or he's going to underperform a contract that averages 20 -25 million/ year.
He gets pushed all over the place by bigger thicker players.
Would it be better to concentrate on Hartenstein and continued improvement from Kabengele?
Kabengele is an intriguing guy and I think he has potential as a back up 4 and 5.
There is going to be interest for Allen. I was on a Raptors board and they really want to bring Allen in in the offseason.
I'd love to get Siakam in here. Would an Allen sign and trade plus another asset get us Siakam?
Will any of this matter if we miss out on a top 5 pick in this draft because chances are we will be right back in the lottery next year
anyway.

 

[foucault87]

You could just SnT if he is priced outside the range. The team that signs him wants it for the one more year, Jarrett wants it for bird rights, and we do it for some assets.

As long as you don't do things like Ainge and havr a thumb in your ass the whole time, these deals are common.

Note. I am not saying we should ditch Allen. I like him a lot and would be fine extending him even for somrthing like 4/80

 

[kidduck]

Allen doesn't have the power to play bully ball, nor even a mid-range
jumper, much less 3 point range.

He has some nice skills but he sure didn't look like a 20M guy.

 

[ytowncavs]

Allen doesn't have the power to play bully ball, nor even a mid-range
jumper, much less 3 point range.

He has some nice skills but he sure didn't look like a 20M guy.

Right, he's just a decent player that will have a great game a couple times a year. Locking players up like him, and you become the Knicks. They were always giving average players big deals that led them nowhere.

 

[inliner311]

Allen doesn't have the power to play bully ball, nor even a mid-range
jumper, much less 3 point range.

He has some nice skills but he sure didn't look like a 20M guy.

I know Allen on paper is an upgrade over TT but I'm not quite sure how much of an upgrade he is. I feel like TT gave more energy and set picks/screens better. I'm not saying I'd rather have TT but if we had trouble trading TT at 17 million last year, I feel we could fall into the same problem with Allen if we ever want to trade him.

I also feel like TT had some intangibles to his game. He just had moments where could string together offensive rebound to deflate an opposing team or give energy when needed to fire up the team. It's something I don't see in Allen at all.

 

[Futuredome]

Allen was clearly overrated by this board. He isn't worth 20 million. Probably not 15 million. He is a asset and nothing more.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

The Cavs think Allen has more upside to be developed. However, his improvement from his rookie season at age 19 to this fourth season has been very minimal if you go by the numbers. I think Hartenstein may have more upside.

Allen has played 7,253 NBA minutes while Hartenstein has played 1,046 - only 1/7th as much. They were born two weeks apart. You'd think Allen would be a lot further along based on those additional 6,200 minutes of NBA experience but I'm not sure that's the case. Allen is better on points per shot attempt and turnovers. Hartenstein is better at assists and steals. They're equal at rebounding.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I believe Jarrett Allen is better than Clint Capela right now, and is on a trajectory to be even better than over the life of his next contract.

I also believe what we saw from him when he first got here was not a flash in the pan. We were using him in the same way we were trying to showcase Drummond early in the year, but Allen was actually playing smart in that role and producing.

I believe he is a very smart player who knows how to play his role and contribute to raising the floor of everyone else on the court on both ends (similar to Okoro on both ends and Garland on offense), and I believe he got frustrated with his role changing after the Drummond trade and Love returned.

I appreciated that he challenged Sexton to play better with his teammates. He seemed to take a similar approach as Nance to reeling him in (after that major in-game blowup) and I don't mind moving LNJ if there are firsts available partly because I believe the Sexton-whisperer role can be filled by Allen.

I believe if his role is defined again on offense, he can get back to playing that role which is all within his capabilities AND he can continue growing what he's capable of offering on-court, like he was starting to do with the 3pt range during his streak of strong play.

 

[inliner311]

I believe Jarrett Allen is better than Clint Capela right now, and is on a trajectory to be even better than over the life of his next contract.

I also believe what we saw from him when he first got here was not a flash in the pan. We were using him in the same way we were trying to showcase Drummond early in the year, but Allen was actually playing smart in that role and producing.

I believe he is a very smart player who knows how to play his role and contribute to raising the floor of everyone else on the court on both ends (similar to Okoro on both ends and Garland on offense), and I believe he got frustrated with his role changing after the Drummond trade and Love returned.

I appreciated that he challenged Sexton to play better with his teammates. He seemed to take a similar approach as Nance to reeling him in (after that major in-game blowup) and I don't mind moving LNJ if there are firsts available partly because I believe the Sexton-whisperer role can be filled by Allen.

I believe if his role is defined again on offense, he can get back to playing that role which is all within his capabilities AND he can continue growing what he's capable of offering on-court, like he was starting to do with the 3pt range during his streak of strong play.

I think centers seem to get paid in the past because there were only so many of them to go around. The evolution of the game and moved alot of guys who would have played PF in the past to playing center. It's been long enough now that the traditional center are able to extend their careers now because they are playing less minutes and splitting time with more modern centers. There is an oversupply of centers and I think there is going to be another market correction of how much to pay them.

The traditional center is only one piece of the puzzle to the center position now. Stretch 5s and athletic high energy big men have significantly eaten into the minutes at the position.

I don't think it's wise to comp Allen or any traditional center to what others are getting currently paid from contract negotiated in years past. The price of traditional center is going down and we don't want to be on the wrong side of it. I think we still need to find a stretch 5 and we don't want to be overloading our salary to the center position just to keep up with the times.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I think centers seem to get paid in the past because there were only so many of them to go around. The evolution of the game and moved alot of guys who would have played PF in the past to playing center. It's been long enough now that the traditional center are able to extend their careers now because they are playing less minutes and splitting time with more modern centers. There is an oversupply of centers and I think there is going to be another market correction of how much to pay them.

The traditional center is only one piece of the puzzle to the center position now. Stretch 5s and athletic high energy big men have significantly eaten into the minutes at the position.

I don't think it's wise to comp Allen or any traditional center to what others are getting currently paid from contract negotiated in years past. The price of traditional center is going down and we don't want to be on the wrong side of it. I think we still need to find a stretch 5 and we don't want to be overloading our salary to the center position just to keep up with the times.

I agree with you 100%

And I like your traditional 5 vs stretch 5/high energy big delineation.

I believe Clint Capela was the x-factor for those Houston teams and is the difference for this NY vs ATL series as well.

His ability to screen and play above the rim on offense and then his ability to show and recover on defense and hit the boards on both ends are what gave Houston a chance to upset GSW and what will propel Atlanta beyond New York because both teams couldnt match him on either end.

When you watch him play, would you consider him a traditional 5 or a stretch 5/high energy big?

Me, I believe he does everything you want the latter to do except offer you range as a shooter out to the perimeter, which is what Allen has shown flashes of being capable of. Passing and defending on the perimeter though, Capela can do but Allen can do better, to me.

 

[Lee]

I think centers seem to get paid in the past because there were only so many of them to go around. The evolution of the game and moved alot of guys who would have played PF in the past to playing center. It's been long enough now that the traditional center are able to extend their careers now because they are playing less minutes and splitting time with more modern centers. There is an oversupply of centers and I think there is going to be another market correction of how much to pay them.

The traditional center is only one piece of the puzzle to the center position now. Stretch 5s and athletic high energy big men have significantly eaten into the minutes at the position.

I don't think it's wise to comp Allen or any traditional center to what others are getting currently paid from contract negotiated in years past. The price of traditional center is going down and we don't want to be on the wrong side of it. I think we still need to find a stretch 5 and we don't want to be overloading our salary to the center position just to keep up with the times.

I dont disagree, but often young players get paid more for potential than reality. I dont think we are in a position to let Allen walk. While i dont want to bid against ourselves, Allen is already a good...not great...but good athletic defensive big man that potentially could develop a jumper like Ibaka. He will never have the strength of Ibaka, so not making that comparison, just using him (and Nance) as examples of big men that learned to shoot 3's midway through career.

 

[inliner311]

I agree with you 100%

And I like your traditional 5 vs stretch 5/high energy big delineation.

I believe Clint Capela was the x-factor for those Houston teams and is the difference for this NY vs ATL series as well.

His ability to screen and play above the rim on offense and then his ability to show and recover on defense and hit the boards on both ends are what gave Houston a chance to upset GSW and what will propel Atlanta beyond New York because both teams couldnt match him on either end.

When you watch him play, would you consider him a traditional 5 or a stretch 5/high energy big?

Me, I believe he does everything you want the latter to do except offer you range as a shooter out to the perimeter, which is what Allen has shown flashes of being capable of. Passing and defending on the perimeter though, Capela can do but Allen can do better, to me.

I haven't ever really focused in and watched Capela play. I do know that he has that x-factor of being able to string together blocks or offensive rebounds. That's something I have yet to see from Allen.

I would say Capela is high energy big that has the size to easily hang with traditional centers. I would put Allen in the tradition center category.

I think Allen is able to consistently put up stats through out the game because of his size. Its not that different than Drummond but I think the difference is he doesn't demand the ball like Drummond. Allen doesn't have that hustle or perfect timed ablity to switch it on that TT had. TT could turn around a game by string together offensive rebounds or out hustle a guy for a rebound to fire up the team.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I haven't ever really focused in and watched Capela play. I do know that he has that x-factor of being able to string together blocks or offensive rebounds. That's something I have yet to see from Allen.

I would say Capela is high energy big that has the size to easily hang with traditional centers. I would put Allen in the tradition center category.

I think Allen is able to consistently put up stats through out the game because of his size. Its not that different than Drummond but I think the difference is he doesn't demand the ball like Drummond. Allen doesn't have that hustle or perfect timed ablity to switch it on that TT had. TT could turn around a game by string together offensive rebounds or out hustle a guy for a rebound to fire up the team.

Got it.

Capela, I believe is actually underpaid still for what he provides for Young, just like he was for what he provided for Harden. An ability to open the floor for a guard with the ball by being able to set a great screen and then go over the top of a defense when they commit to shutting the guard down. Harden is now doing that with Claxton in Brooklyn. He looks like a much better player when Claxton is on the floor screening and rolling with him than he does when Blake is out there. Same for Capela with Trae Young. The threat of a guy who sets a really good screen being able to finish over the defense keeps them from locking that guard down.

Garland and Sexton both started using Jarrett for just that. Garland instinctively did it from the day Allen arrived, and it opened the floor for him tremendously. He would use the Allen screen and then depending on what defenses did, he was either lobbing to JA, using the floater or seeking someone on the perimeter. The two of them gave a masterclass on it in that second Minny game where Garland gave us his first "Holy Shit" moment that Koby was talking about seeing this year.

Nobody else on the team could screen and then offer that above the rim roll threat that JA could which keeps defenses off balance. I believe it's essential for the continued development of both guards.

And that's just talking offense.

 

[Cavatt]

I am much lower on Allen after the honeymoon period was over. I have doubts about his attitude, motor, and durability that I didn't before he was injured.

Watching him lose the ball repeatedly was a bummer for me. People complained about touches for him, but he routinely looked surprised to get the ball and didn't know what to do with it.

I hope those are just chemistry things that can be solved with a training camp and working out with the guards in the summer. Also, if Collin and Darius don't work out with him in the summer, they are stupid.

 

[LeeBuckeye]

Got it.

Capela, I believe is actually underpaid still for what he provides for Young, just like he was for what he provided for Harden. An ability to open the floor for a guard with the ball by being able to set a great screen and then go over the top of a defense when they commit to shutting the guard down. Harden is now doing that with Claxton in Brooklyn. He looks like a much better player when Claxton is on the floor screening and rolling with him than he does when Blake is out there. Same for Capela with Trae Young. The threat of a guy who sets a really good screen being able to finish over the defense keeps them from locking that guard down.

Garland and Sexton both started using Jarrett for just that. Garland instinctively did it from the day Allen arrived, and it opened the floor for him tremendously. He would use the Allen screen and then depending on what defenses did, he was either lobbing to JA, using the floater or seeking someone on the perimeter. The two of them gave a masterclass on it in that second Minny game where Garland gave us his first "Holy Shit" moment that Koby was talking about seeing this year.

Nobody else on the team could screen and then offer that above the rim roll threat that JA could which keeps defenses off balance. I believe it's essential for the continued development of both guards.

And that's just talking offense.

The advantage Clint had over JA was the number of shooters they had spacing the floor for his partnership with Trae Young on offense. I have Clint clear over JA due to his activity overall and doesn't get dominated by stronger players like JA does. He's 4 years younger so maybe he can work on his body? Giving offensively limited bigs that kind of money makes me nervous either way but 18 million per seems reasonable however I would pass on 25 million per season.

With respect to your point about Garland/JA I saw this encouraging tweet: