Koby Altman nailed, then failed to take breathalyzer…

[sailfish]

1. Because, imo, you had a chance to win another title. And Koby had to completely remake the roster mid-season (which I count as a "pro") because of how the main pieces in the Irving deal failed to contribute and mesh with the team (which I would count as a "con"). I count Sexton as a "pro" as he was one of the better choices available at his slot when drafted, but he didn't help them win a title in 2017-18, and that was the level by which one was judged that year.
2. I want to believe that, as I do not like Dan Gilbert as a public figure. It may also be why Koby has had such a long rope, if Dan is going to force these decisions, he kind of needs to keep the GM. I do remember reports that Koby and one of his staff members had to sell Dan on the Beilein move. It does feel very Dan Gilbert-y. Anyway, I agree with your take, but since Koby says it's his decision, he gets to eat the shit-sammie.
3. Drummond was an opportunity cost though, and a bad one. It basically cost you keeping a veteran who would have been more productive, cheaper and better at accepting different roles and a generally better person to have in the lockerroom in Tristan. I don't care about the loss of Dan Gilbert's money, but I think AD was a colossal waste of time and space for the Cavs. Even if you would have still lost TT to free agency, AD's spot would have been better served with a rookie free agent playing at the minimum. Plus, the lost chance of weakening a division rival was worth forcing Detroit to live with that awful contract.
4. KPjr was a calculated gamble that seemed worth taking.. I just think the Cavs mismanaged it. Also, Cleveland should probably be honest with itself as an organization: We aren't a good spot for delicate/high maintenance personalities.

You have to remember that Kyrie wanted out and didn’t want to play with Lebron anymore. Could we have forced the issue and made him stay here? Sure, but we likely would’ve ended up with nothing for him, as he would’ve left us via free agency, just like he left the Celtics.

Given the division between Kyrie & Lebron, making a title run on 2017 wouldn’t have been in the cards. I heard Kyrie had stopped talking to members of the team/organization, so it had become an untenable situation.

I think you’re overestimating the loss of Tristan. We all appreciate him for his time here, but guys like him are a dime a dozen. Jarrett Allen is younger & a far better player.

KPJ was on a very short leash to begin with and he went nuclear, to the point, the team wasn’t willing to have him around anymore.

The Love contract was a horrible move, not ifs ands or buts. However, it was largely made by an owner who was trying to keep his team relevant after Lebron had left.

 

[inliner311]

I have changed my mind about Lue. I wasn't happy with him, but that bad start wasn't his fault at all. All you have to ask yourself is whether you would take Ty right now over JB and it is a pretty easy choice.

I thought Ty was part of the trouble with Kyrie at the time and was ready to be done with him. I feel pretty differently about it now. He might have been a bad fit for a rebuilding team, but basically there were many mistakes made that first year. I'd be excited about having him for this core.

I'm not sure Lue would be good for this team even in this stage of the rebuild. I think we would have to be alittle further along so we had more of a clear cut roster of who he would use. I think we would need a situation where he was force to trust our young core and didn't have the option to play vets. I do think we are going to get to the point of realizing JBB isn't worth keeping fairly soon.

I still think the best person for the rebuild of the coaches we had was Larry Drew. He seem to have a plan for Sexton on how he was going to make him into a PG. He was constantly talking to him and put aside Sexton's scoring as the reason to keep him in games. I wish Drew wanted the job because I think he would have made a plan for every player of the young core and how they wanted to develop them.

 

[weepinwillow]

You have to remember that Kyrie wanted out and didn’t want to play with Lebron anymore. Could we have forced the issue and made him stay here? Sure, but we likely would’ve ended up with nothing for him, as he would’ve left us via free agency, just like he left the Celtics.

Given the division between Kyrie & Lebron, making a title run on 2017 wouldn’t have been in the cards. I heard Kyrie had stopped talking to members of the team/organization, so it had become an untenable situation.

I think you’re overestimating the loss of Tristan. We all appreciate him for his time here, but guys like him are a dime a dozen. Jarrett Allen is younger & a far better player.

KPJ was on a very short leash to begin with and he went nuclear, to the point, the team wasn’t willing to have him around anymore.

The Love contract was a horrible move, not ifs ands or buts. However, it was largely made by an owner who was trying to keep his team relevant after Lebron had left.

even if I accept that there was no way to repair the relationship enough to make run w/Irving, the deal itself was awful as far as a return for what was an under contract star who was 1 year removed from a title clinching 3. It actually isn't really on Koby, it's really on Gilbert who HAS TO WIN THE PRESSER even if it doesn't win actual games. And getting an "all star" in IT (damaged goods that everyone knew was damaged goods, and even healthy, not a guy you win a title with) and the Nets pick let him do that, but I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now.

I don't think Im overestimating it. I think you're underestimating what a competent franchise looks like. One where their vets are treated well, where competition for playing time is fostered by putting in the work vs grown men. I could probably be talked into the Love contract being as much a roadblock to TT-re-signing as AD being on the roster.. but I think it was more AD overlapping skill set (though there was no overlap in professionalism).

My point on KPjr is that you need to support system to make it work. The cavs didn't have it in place.

I know, extenuating circumstances. But that's just it: there's always a justification for everything a GM does at the time. The good one's turn out to be right in those justifications more often than not, I think Altman has been OK, but it's more of a mediocre track record. I think his best move may very well have been the mid-season clean-up of the 2017 offseason mistakes.

 

[Alec]

To me, Koby feels like a scout who was promoted out of his competence level/area. Maybe in over his head as a head executive.

 

[weepinwillow]

To me, Koby feels like a scout who was promoted out of his competence level/area. Maybe in over his head as a head executive.

there's probably some truth to that. I think it has more to do with the owner, though.

I should say, I want to attribute all good moves to Altman, all bad moves to Gilbert.

I find Dan meddlesome when it's unneeded and absent when it might actually be needed (yes, I know he had a stroke). It's pretty clear the franchise is questionable under his ownership sans-LeBron. 2010-2014 and 2018-2021 has been a ton of losing basketball, some competent drafts/roster moves and some incompetent drafts/roster moves.

If I made my list with that in mind, Altman looks better. He has collected some talent, you can see where most of it fits, but you probably wasted some time with Love, Drummond, the entire group of vets who clearly didn't want to be here after LeBron decided to move closer to his kids new school, the rudderless straddle re-build/compete.. and all those things speak to a franchise that's not totally functional.

 

[Man Called X]

To me, Koby feels like a scout who was promoted out of his competence level/area. Maybe in over his head as a head executive.

People are always promoted one step further than they should be.

 

[Cavatt]

To me, Koby feels like a scout who was promoted out of his competence level/area. Maybe in over his head as a head executive.

He's very young and seems smart. Lacks wisdom I think.

Thing that stuck out to me is when they went and visited the air base. He is with all these military people, asks one where she is from. She says, "The Bronx". Now a wise person would say, "Oh cool I am from Brooklyn, cool." Instead he says, "Ahh great I am from Park Slope".

Now, it is a small thing, but being from Park Slope instead of Brooklyn is like, "Yeah I live on Park Ave" instead of just saying you are from Manhattan. It like puts up a wall.

It doesn't really mean anything, but it struck me and I think about it in the context of KPJ saying Koby was a "modern day slave owner". It's a messed up thing to say to anyone, but how was he relating to KPJ? Was he big timing him? He was keeping him off the court while his team was struggling and were dying for someone to handle the ball and make plays. How was this rich guy from Park slope relating to a poor kid whose dad was killed by gang violence? Was he doing it the same way he related to that likely poor person from the Bronx who was joining the military to get an education? Is he a smooth operator or is he arrogant and thinks he is the smartest guy around at any time? I wouldn't put it past him to outsmart himself.

 

[Man Called X]

After today, Kobe deserves to be fired.

Not one single way to justify the shitshow he just pulled.

 

[LeeBuckeye]

Yeah not sure I get this. Chicago got a 1st and 2nd for a player that wasn't a part of their future. Portland got the best player in the deal in Nance.

Cavs traded the best player, didn't get a first in the process, and immediately had to pay the player they acquired. Sorry I'm having trouble processing this.

 

[Cavatt]

Yeah not sure I get this. Chicago got a 1st and 2nd for a player that wasn't a part of their future. Portland got the best player in the deal in Nance.

Cavs traded the best player, didn't get a first in the process, and immediately had to pay the player they acquired. Sorry I'm having trouble processing this.

Koby blinked on the RFA offer of the full MLE

 

[avs2000]

Yeah not sure I get this. Chicago got a 1st and 2nd for a player that wasn't a part of their future. Portland got the best player in the deal in Nance.

Cavs traded the best player, didn't get a first in the process, and immediately had to pay the player they acquired. Sorry I'm having trouble processing this.

I am not sure Larry is the best player. It’s probably close. But Larry is always hurt and lauri can shoot.

 

[wnorman51]

I am not sure Larry is the best player. It’s probably close. But Larry is always hurt and lauri can shoot.

Nance has played more games than LM over the past three years.

 

[Alec]

Let’s take stock after today’s move.

A diminutive backcourt that cannot be paired together longterm. The worst part about it is that they’re both good players and will garner significant contracts. However they cannot both be kept due to roster construction issues. One of them will end up leaving, probably for pennies on the dollar as restricted free agent. The best scorer on the team will likely leave on a max contract elsewhere.

Drafted a bench swingman fifth overall. He can barely dribble, though his shooting is coming around. He is a shooting guard, insofar as he should be defending shooting guards, but not one who can create his own offense.

The team does not have a starting level small forward. Still. If Garland-Okoro is the pairing going forward and Sexton leaves, Garland will be the only player on the team capable of creating his own shot AND creating for others.

Paid market value for a starting center who is a traditional center. Drafted a 4/5 tweener who is probably 2-3 years out from being a real game changer. If that ends up happening.

traded the team’s smartest player, best/most versatile defender, city ambassador, and burgeoning 3 PT shooter…for a soft 7 footer who is good at shooting 3s. It seems like keeping the first player makes more sense given the fact that we have no wings, need players to keep the all moving (due to lack of shot creators), and will need to pair split Mobley‘s time.

People are talking about “fitting the timeline”… what timeline are you even talking about? This team is terrible and just traded the best, most versatile team player for a one dimensional player who they then extended.

 

[LeeBuckeye]

I figured Koby would do something to compete this year but trading Nance who is in his prime for the upside play of Lauri seems like the move a safe GM who is not on the hot seat would make as opposed to one making the playoff. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Roster construction is an issue sure, but what if Koby explored every possible trade for a competent SF and came up with nothing (short of adding a 2022 1st round pick)? He trades for Lauri who he got as the best possible return for Nance to alleviate the scoring and shooting issues and rolls the dice on the next 2 drafts to find the coveted wing.

 

[foucault87]

Fire this clown. What an awful trade