Koby Altman nailed, then failed to take breathalyzer…

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

If you don’t believe Koby has done a good job and should be replaced, I’d ask two questions:

1) which moves that he made are ‘fireable’ offenses?
2) who do you propose hiring either to replace him or to put above him that would be a better option? Keep in mind that Dan Gilbert has never shown a willingness to spend big on front office executives, preferring to go with young, up & comers.

Is that what you got out of my posts?

I think he's done an adequate job with regards to talent acquisition.

I think he's lacking when it comes to leading a franchise.

I hope we either replace him, or add someone in who can fill his deficiencies.

I fully agree that #2 is an issue. I'm not sure this organization is ever going to be a quality, well-run organization as long as Dan is in charge--but at the same time, I'm not sure if post-stroke Dan is the same as pre-stroke Dan.

I'm not arguing "Koby sucks and deserves to be fired!!!" I am arguing that this is not a championship-level organization without some changes.

 

[adam81king]

If you don’t believe Koby has done a good job and should be replaced, I’d ask two questions:

1) which moves that he made are ‘fireable’ offenses?
2) who do you propose hiring either to replace him or to put above him that would be a better option? Keep in mind that Dan Gilbert has never shown a willingness to spend big on front office executives, preferring to go with young, up & comers.

You didn't ask me, and I don't necessarily think Koby should be fired (though I wouldn't be upset if he did), mostly because of your second question, but I don't think a GM needs to have a string of "fireable offenses" to get fired. The front office is more of a project based industry, where the product you put out has to reach certain standards every year. Koby's hasn't met many folks' expectations, realistic or otherwise. That can get him fired, even if a single thing isn't fireable.

 

[bs80]

I think he's done an adequate job with regards to talent acquisition.

I think he's lacking when it comes to leading a franchise.

I hope we either replace him, or add someone in who can fill his deficiencies.

Just curious, why do you feel he falls short in the leadership department?

 

[Cassity14]

Just curious, why do you feel he falls short in the leadership department?

There have been numerous instances that reflect a poor culture in the Cavs since Koby took charge.

His title and role involve setting and maintaining a strong culture in the clubhouse.

 

[2 For The Brew]

There have been numerous instances that reflect a poor culture in the Cavs since Koby took charge.

His title and role involve setting and maintaining a strong culture in the clubhouse.

I’d argue the opposite. The problems have been run out of town (JR, KPJ, Drummond) and the good culture youngbloods are still here.

Kevin Love is the exception but there’s not much that can be done now with that contract.

We have an excellent culture now. The kids are busting their asses and we have zero issues with any of them - they’re serious professionals working hard to get better.

 

[Cavatt]

I’ll say this, John Bielein is a helluva coach, who has had success at every stop, the Cavaliers aside. Two things killed him here- the ‘thugs’ comment and veterans, like Kevin Love, not accepting his coaching style and basically acting like the spoiled millionaires they are.

I can see why the move was made- a coach that is strong in fundamentals & teaching, working with a young team. That makes sense. It just didn’t work out, as you can’t coach NBA millionaires the same way you can college kids.

Beilein went against everyone' advice and was yelling at grown men. He broke Windler's leg and we are still paying for that one. Hes a guy we really needed and his leg might be permanently damaged. He alienated the vets before the season even started in summer league.

I talked to a former player of his and he said, "That dictator style is never going to work in the NBA" so how the hell didn't Gansey and Koby know that?

 

[Cassity14]

I’d argue the opposite. The problems have been run out of town (JR, KPJ, Drummond) and the good culture youngbloods are still here.

Kevin Love is the exception but there’s not much that can be done now with that contract.

We have an excellent culture now. The kids are busting their asses and we have zero issues with any of them - they’re serious professionals working hard to get better.

The people who got run out of town got to that point because Koby wasn't capable of mitigating issues before they became irreconcilable. It's his job to not let things get to that point, yet they repeatedly have.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Beilein went against everyone' advice and was yelling at grown men. He broke Windler's leg and we are still paying for that one. Hes a guy we really needed and his leg might be permanently damaged. He alienated the vets before the season even started in summer league.

I talked to a former player of his and he said, "That dictator style is never going to work in the NBA" so how the hell didn't Gansey and Koby know that?

He probably promised he'd change. Might even have convinced himself that he would. Just didn't happen, and his statement when he left alluded to that.

 

[bs80]

There have been numerous instances that reflect a poor culture in the Cavs since Koby took charge.

His title and role involve setting and maintaining a strong culture in the clubhouse.

Gotcha, I just wanted to know more specifically what he, or anyone else that shares the opinion that Koby is lacking in leadership, was referring to. In addition to a strong culture, or lack thereof, I was wondering if he was alluding to things such as not addressing the media at all throughout the season, especially after the KPJ experiment came to an end.

I would contend that the culture Koby inherited was destined to be doomed unless he miraculously made chicken salad out of the chickenshit situation with Kyrie that he was greeted with when he first took over. The only thing that really held everything in line was LeBron's immense talent, and that ship was almost certain to set sail after the 2017-18 season no matter what.

Koby was essentially tasked with building a strong culture from even worse than scratch, as he had some malcontents that needed to be shipped out. By no means does that give him a free pass, as he shot himself in his own ass with that Love extension. And while I was fully on board with both the KPJ pick and the trade for Drummond because they seemed like such low-risk moves at the time, those moves certainly hampered the push toward a strong team culture.

What I need to see from him is that he is growing as a GM and that the team is moving in the right direction. With his top picks in the past four drafts, he has acquired not only some really nice talent, but also some really solid characters that have already improved the culture for the better. Perhaps this process took longer than we had anticipated or hoped, but I am still hopeful that he has learned a lot on the job the past few years and that he is much better equipped to lead this franchise going forward. The jury is still very much out.

 

[weepinwillow]

Why would the Kyrie trade fall under the Cons? The Cavs won that trade as they have Sexton to show for it while the C’s have nothing. Kyrie matured into a nutjob anyways and we’re better off without him.

If the argument is the Cavs didn’t get enough for Kyrie, as I recall they weren’t getting great offers for him. I recall rumors of Bledsoe & a 1st being offered by Phoenix, which isn’t any better.

Also, I’d give Koby a pass on Bielein, as it appears Dan Gilbert heavily influenced that hire. Same goes for the Love extension.

Drummond & KPJ were low risk gambles worth taking that didn’t pan out.

1. Because, imo, you had a chance to win another title. And Koby had to completely remake the roster mid-season (which I count as a "pro") because of how the main pieces in the Irving deal failed to contribute and mesh with the team (which I would count as a "con"). I count Sexton as a "pro" as he was one of the better choices available at his slot when drafted, but he didn't help them win a title in 2017-18, and that was the level by which one was judged that year.
2. I want to believe that, as I do not like Dan Gilbert as a public figure. It may also be why Koby has had such a long rope, if Dan is going to force these decisions, he kind of needs to keep the GM. I do remember reports that Koby and one of his staff members had to sell Dan on the Beilein move. It does feel very Dan Gilbert-y. Anyway, I agree with your take, but since Koby says it's his decision, he gets to eat the shit-sammie.
3. Drummond was an opportunity cost though, and a bad one. It basically cost you keeping a veteran who would have been more productive, cheaper and better at accepting different roles and a generally better person to have in the lockerroom in Tristan. I don't care about the loss of Dan Gilbert's money, but I think AD was a colossal waste of time and space for the Cavs. Even if you would have still lost TT to free agency, AD's spot would have been better served with a rookie free agent playing at the minimum. Plus, the lost chance of weakening a division rival was worth forcing Detroit to live with that awful contract.
4. KPjr was a calculated gamble that seemed worth taking.. I just think the Cavs mismanaged it. Also, Cleveland should probably be honest with itself as an organization: We aren't a good spot for delicate/high maintenance personalities.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

The people who got run out of town got to that point because Koby wasn't capable of mitigating issues before they became irreconcilable. It's his job to not let things get to that point, yet they repeatedly have.

Are you referring to KPJ and JR? Anyone else?

 

[Lee]

I'd add to this all the laments we heard when Dan didn't keep Griff...even though it seemed that Griff didn't want to stay in the first place. But after seeing what Griff has done in NO, how many people would be willing to do a straight-up Altman for Griffin trade today? I sure as hell wouldn't.

That's the problem with the grass is always greener approach -- sometimes, it just isn't. For me, Koby has been good enough that I don't want to turn in all my cards for a completely new hand. I'd rather play this one out for longer and see how it goes.

Altman has made some mistakes, for example Love extension, even if it was Dan, shouldnt he been able to talk him out of it? Cedi contract sucks, miss handled to a degree KPJ, roster is missing a true SF and we have a Sexton problem, ie doesnt fit 100%, too good to let walk, how much do we pay him and can we get him on a reasobable contract....but he has drafted well, especially in the mid lottery, and has made some great trades.

Lets keep the course going, we arent going to be able to attract free agents like the Lakers who can rebuild immediately, so it will take time. Now that we have Mobley lets see what he looks like with the rest of the young core in 3 years

 

[avs2000]

You can make an argument that it starts and ends with the Love deal. Letting Love walk would've allowed them to take on bad contracts for additional assets while tanking just the same. They would've been primed to trade for a young star or traded up in a draft or two and at the very least had enough cap space to sign valuable veterans that could fill the gaps (size + shooting) while adding a level professionalism the team has been lacking.

I just don’t think love was koby’s idea. I am thinking Gilbert insisted

 

[Cassity14]

Are you referring to KPJ and JR? Anyone else?

Drummond for sure.

To a lesser extent, guys like George Hill and Rodney Hood who apparently never were brought on board either after the Finals run.

I'm also talking about Belein. For all intents and purposes, it certainly seemed like he got run out of town as well.

Shit, even Ty Lue fits in my mind.

 

[Cavatt]

Drummond for sure.

To a lesser extent, guys like George Hill and Rodney Hood who apparently never were brought on board either after the Finals run.

I'm also talking about Belein. For all intents and purposes, it certainly seemed like he got run out of town as well.

Shit, even Ty Lue fits in my mind.

I have changed my mind about Lue. I wasn't happy with him, but that bad start wasn't his fault at all. All you have to ask yourself is whether you would take Ty right now over JB and it is a pretty easy choice.

I thought Ty was part of the trouble with Kyrie at the time and was ready to be done with him. I feel pretty differently about it now. He might have been a bad fit for a rebuilding team, but basically there were many mistakes made that first year. I'd be excited about having him for this core.