Lindor trade ideas

[CDAV45]

How about Grichuk at $ 4 MM AAV?

Civale has been very good... no one has forgotten..

You can keep Kirk and Teoscar.. no interest whatsoever..

Why would you be interested in Grichuk and not Hernandez?

 

[sportscoach]

Totonto would think they're giving up way more than they want.. They are also thinking that an infield as described along with the inclusion of a bona fide ML SP makes them a better team. Almost all deals like this.. never happen.. but.. it's the kind of deal that would end up beneficial for both clubs.. The deals where one team can say: WE KILLED THEM in a deal, with all the sabermetrics.. are becoming fewer and farther between..

As with most situations.. there are exceptions.. that is.. every once in a while.. a team makes a deal where they acquire an SP with a low 3's ERA, a WHIP less than 1.20, nearly twice as many wins as losses in decisions and a K-Rate that is more than one per inning for

"...a bunch of guys.."

..none of whom have histories littered with hall of fame accomplishments.. That bunch of guys.. in the aggregate, sometimes ends up being so good.. the deal that was supposed to be soooo one sided.. turns out to be.. anything but.. or just the opposite..

...it's not the same as when you post a hypothetical trade deal.. and it's immediately panned as never going to happen for either team.. with prejudice.. that's just negative..

Thoughts?..

Toronto probably does want Lindor, but they also have faith in Bichette at SS who would have to change positions. The team would have to rearrange defensively.

So a trade of Guirrel, Jansen, Groshans and Manoah/Kloffenstein isn't even out of the question in my mind since one, the INF will be set for a long time. Grichuk has a pretty bad contract so I dont want him.

Though if I was Toronto, i would want to keep Guirrel and just trade Jansen and top prospects. That would really make a legit lineup overall with no weak spot (outside of maybe catching)

 

[sportscoach]

Why would you be interested in Grichuk and not Hernandez?

I mean Hernandez was in the MVP race this season until he got hurt.

Though that being said, history of Hernandez says a guy with low contact, but high power and a decent OPS. If he can keep the numbers from this year, he would be a steal.

 

[Gson]

I mean Hernandez was in the MVP race this season until he got hurt.

Though that being said, history of Hernandez says a guy with low contact, but high power and a decent OPS. If he can keep the numbers from this year, he would be a steal.

SSS...

His history says nothing special defensively.. corner or center outfield spots but doesn't embarrass himself.. that is, he makes all the routine plays. He has a good arm & accurate arm. and he runs decently, but, won't be on the league leader board for SB's.. Teoscar STRIKES OUT A LOT (nearly a third of the time, even when he's going well).. He swings at a LOT of pitches outside the zone, but, has enough hand eye coordination to make contact.. His walk rate as he's maturing is going in the wrong direction.. His K-rate hasn't changed much..

In short, from his full history & not just his 2020 results.. he'd be a .220 - .240 OF'er with reasonable but nothing impressive on base capabilities.. He has some hot streaks (who doesn't?). He runs into a few... and plays uninspired defense.. He's entering into his waning years, i.e. an old 28/29 for the 2021 season. It should be noted that 2020 represents his "career year" & is fueled mainly on an uncommonly (for him) high BABIP.. As an added OF'er.. the Indians can and must do better.. As a head liner for one of the top five or ten guys in all of MLB, everyone will do better.. so..

Soft Pass.. as there are worse OF'ers than him playing for teams who's season ends in September.... but, not a lot..

Thoughts?

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

I am intrigued by Teoscar Hernandez if he was about the 3rd best piece of the trade, because he is 28 years old and you only get 3 years of team control with him so his cost goes up a bunch after 2021 if the 2020 production is repeated. Since I doubt Toronto has any realistic chance of being the long term destination for Lindor, I don't see how trading him there gets you the best return.

The Clevinger trade return does not give me great optimism for a Lindor trade. That trade clearly emphasized getting a bunch of stuff rather than targeting any elite prospects. With the trading team getting only a year of Lindor and having to pay him close to $20 million for that year, the return might not be much better long term than the comp picks when he walks.

 

[Gson]

I am intrigued .....best return.

The Clevinger trade return does not give me great optimism for a Lindor trade. That trade clearly emphasized getting a bunch of stuff rather than targeting any elite prospects. With the trading team getting only a year of Lindor and having to pay him close to $20 million for that year, the return might not be much better long term than the comp picks when he walks.

Hmm.... separating the two halves of your comment.. (realistically, how much teoscar conversation can there be?).....

The Clevinger deal has ALL indication of being incredible for the Indians..

Reviewing the deal: Padres get Mike Clevinger, Greg Allen and PTBNL
(btw... it seems to me, the PTBNL was a lower level middle infielder.. but don't recall.. If anyone has a notion/can remember who this was... or might still be?)

Indians get (in order of MLB readiness):
Josh Naylor OF/1B: Blocked 1B in an OF'er role.. When he was told he wouldn't play much (Eric Hosmer), he was asked to get fit and learn to play the OF.. He's an adequate to sub-adequate corner OF'er.. an average 1B.. and has "moments" or streaks when he puts the bat on the ball. Carlos Santana he's not, but, his game is or can be ML quality. In order for him to be part of the winning side of this deal, he has to step it up.. hugely.. As of now, he's only slightly better than Los's backup..

Austin Hedges C: An all glove, no bat, gold glove defensive backstop. Game calling skills, pitch framing, running game control and blocking are hallmarks of this defensive specialist. He's a DFA candidate whenever the Indians look at a position that isn't hitting.. Fortunately, for Austin Hedges, the CLEFO doesn't look at the catching position for offense.. otherwise, he'd be gone..

Owen Miller SS/2B/3B/Util: Drafted in 2018 (3rd, 84th) Senior signing; .307/.367/.441 with 175 XBH in 205 games played: 122@SS, 19@3B, 48@2B; Overview: Should be ready to step into the Mike Freeman / Yu Chang role from day one in 2021. This is a guy that comes in a deal that makes the trading team have meeting asking why we let this guy get away.. probably(?)

Cal Quantrill RHSP: Wow.. The gem of the deal. No doubt, this is the guy that will make the deal. Quantrill can be better than Clevinger, alone. CLEFO will receive full marks for bringing Quantrill as part of this deal. Has shown versatility by pitching both as a starter as well as a reliever. Has a full three pitch mix that he contols and commands very well. If he remains healthy (& he's a big strong guy), he has all the ability to be a middle to top of the rotation SP. HUGE win with Quantrill in this deal.

The REAL reason the CLEFO made this deal are these two guys:

Joey Cantillo LHSP: A strike throwing machine.. Drafted late as an afterthought in 2018, he's just 21 (going to be in a few weeks).. and has almost the perfect starting body for a ML pitcher.. and, he's left handed.. He has a pair of what should be considered plus pitches (FB/CH) that he throws out of the same tunnel, and he has the ability to spin a ball for what might be considered a coming plus CB (both good depth and shape). He projected to be about two years away as a MOR/BOR SP...but has a floor as a long man/back of the pen reliever if the Indians don't see a huge change in the development of his breaking ball. With his noted work ethic.. he's only going to get better..

Gabriel Arias SS: Perhaps the most important part of the trade.. Greatest arm in baseball for an infielder.. has a bazooka that produces frozen ropes that he produces from his gold glove level defense. I don't know that I've ever seen an arm like this kid has.. As a ML'er, he's what a ten year veteran SS is supposed to look like. It's his offense that has the biggest question. He strikes out too much for a middle infielder, about one in four AB's. He's got the build / strength of a corner OF'er and, when he puts the bat on the ball.. it goes. He's the goods.. He could be ready for ML as early as the September call ups in 2021... but may see his service clock manipulated to add an additional year..

The deal that saw Mike Clevinger leave and these six guys return.. has very little chance of being anything but a HUGE win for the Indians as it appears they will be generating a pair of Major League starting pitchers, an OF'er and two infielders..for a very VERY good SP that has shown some concern about staying on the field..

I'd do this deal again.. I doubt the Padres would..

Thoughts?>.

 

[CDAV45]

SSS...

His history says nothing special defensively.. corner or center outfield spots but doesn't embarrass himself.. that is, he makes all the routine plays. He has a good arm & accurate arm. and he runs decently, but, won't be on the league leader board for SB's.. Teoscar STRIKES OUT A LOT (nearly a third of the time, even when he's going well).. He swings at a LOT of pitches outside the zone, but, has enough hand eye coordination to make contact.. His walk rate as he's maturing is going in the wrong direction.. His K-rate hasn't changed much..

In short, from his full history & not just his 2020 results.. he'd be a .220 - .240 OF'er with reasonable but nothing impressive on base capabilities.. He has some hot streaks (who doesn't?). He runs into a few... and plays uninspired defense.. He's entering into his waning years, i.e. an old 28/29 for the 2021 season. It should be noted that 2020 represents his "career year" & is fueled mainly on an uncommonly (for him) high BABIP.. As an added OF'er.. the Indians can and must do better.. As a head liner for one of the top five or ten guys in all of MLB, everyone will do better.. so..

Soft Pass.. as there are worse OF'ers than him playing for teams who's season ends in September.... but, not a lot..

Thoughts?

If your argument is that Grichuk is a better defensive player then I agree. What I don't agree with is the idea that Hernandez is a bad idea because he strikes out a lot. Grichuk is well known for his swing and miss abilities. If both could be had at the same cost then it would be a tough decision IMO, but that is most unlikely. Neither are awe inspiring. I don't think Toronto is a likely landing spot for Lindor.

 

[MadThinker88]

The PTBNL from the Tribe is suspected to be a RHRP.... I think a kid that dominated at Mahoning Valley in 2019..
I'll locate the name & edit to here later...

Edit: I believe the name that was leaked was Nick Mikolajchak Matt Waldron......
To be clear it is my understanding the PTBNL has not yet been officially named/ sent to SD by the Tribe

 

[CDAV45]

Hmm.... separating the two halves of your comment.. (realistically, how much teoscar conversation can there be?).....

The Clevinger deal has ALL indication of being incredible for the Indians..

Reviewing the deal: Padres get Mike Clevinger, Greg Allen and PTBNL
(btw... it seems to me, the PTBNL was a lower level middle infielder.. but don't recall.. If anyone has a notion/can remember who this was... or might still be?)

Indians get (in order of MLB readiness):
Josh Naylor OF/1B: Blocked 1B in an OF'er role.. When he was told he wouldn't play much (Eric Hosmer), he was asked to get fit and learn to play the OF.. He's an adequate to sub-adequate corner OF'er.. an average 1B.. and has "moments" or streaks when he puts the bat on the ball. Carlos Santana he's not, but, his game is or can be ML quality. In order for him to be part of the winning side of this deal, he has to step it up.. hugely.. As of now, he's only slightly better than Los's backup..

Austin Hedges C: An all glove, no bat, gold glove defensive backstop. Game calling skills, pitch framing, running game control and blocking are hallmarks of this defensive specialist. He's a DFA candidate whenever the Indians look at a position that isn't hitting.. Fortunately, for Austin Hedges, the CLEFO doesn't look at the catching position for offense.. otherwise, he'd be gone..

Owen Miller SS/2B/3B/Util: Drafted in 2018 (3rd, 84th) Senior signing; .307/.367/.441 with 175 XBH in 205 games played: 122@SS, 19@3B, 48@2B; Overview: Should be ready to step into the Mike Freeman / Yu Chang role from day one in 2021. This is a guy that comes in a deal that makes the trading team have meeting asking why we let this guy get away.. probably(?)

Cal Quantrill RHSP: Wow.. The gem of the deal. No doubt, this is the guy that will make the deal. Quantrill can be better than Clevinger, alone. CLEFO will receive full marks for bringing Quantrill as part of this deal. Has shown versatility by pitching both as a starter as well as a reliever. Has a full three pitch mix that he contols and commands very well. If he remains healthy (& he's a big strong guy), he has all the ability to be a middle to top of the rotation SP. HUGE win with Quantrill in this deal.

The REAL reason the CLEFO made this deal are these two guys:

Joey Cantillo LHSP: A strike throwing machine.. Drafted late as an afterthought in 2018, he's just 21 (going to be in a few weeks).. and has almost the perfect starting body for a ML pitcher.. and, he's left handed.. He has a pair of what should be considered plus pitches (FB/CH) that he throws out of the same tunnel, and he has the ability to spin a ball for what might be considered a coming plus CB (both good depth and shape). He projected to be about two years away as a MOR/BOR SP...but has a floor as a long man/back of the pen reliever if the Indians don't see a huge change in the development of his breaking ball. With his noted work ethic.. he's only going to get better..

Gabriel Arias SS: Perhaps the most important part of the trade.. Greatest arm in baseball for an infielder.. has a bazooka that produces frozen ropes that he produces from his gold glove level defense. I don't know that I've ever seen an arm like this kid has.. As a ML'er, he's what a ten year veteran SS is supposed to look like. It's his offense that has the biggest question. He strikes out too much for a middle infielder, about one in four AB's. He's got the build / strength of a corner OF'er and, when he puts the bat on the ball.. it goes. He's the goods.. He could be ready for ML as early as the September call ups in 2021... but may see his service clock manipulated to add an additional year..

The deal that saw Mike Clevinger leave and these six guys return.. has very little chance of being anything but a HUGE win for the Indians as it appears they will be generating a pair of Major League starting pitchers, an OF'er and two infielders..for a very VERY good SP that has shown some concern about staying on the field..

I'd do this deal again.. I doubt the Padres would..

Thoughts?>.

Good read Gson, thanks. I can't believe that the Padres sent that much for Clevinger. It was a haul IMO.

Getting Quantrill was a helluva get. A power arm that can control the ball. I look for him to blossom under the Indian's direction.

Cantillo looks to be the goods and is exactly the type of SP prospect the Indians excel at developing.

Arias, like you said, is perhaps the biggest get in this trade. He is also why I don't think acquiring more SS prospects in a Lindor trade will be done. Well, him along with Freeman, Rocchio, Rodriguez, and Tucker. That's ridiculous depth.

Naylor is only 23 and put up good(not great) numbers at every stop in the Minors while being severely younger than the average player. I see him being a guy that hits .280, gets on base decently, and gives you around 25 HR when all is said and done.

Miller is a nice player. He actually reminds me of Hernandez. Does everything very well, but nothing great. A good, steady player that could be a perfect replacement for Mike Freeman or replace Hernandez. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

Quantrill looks now to be a middle reliever. He throws too many pitches with not enough strikeouts to be a quality starter. He is potentially Nick Wittgren to pitch in the 7th or 8th. Not an awful thing to have but not a target in a deal for a top of the line starter. The one thing that could save the deal is constant injuries for Clevinger then any lottery ticket is better.

 

[Gson]

Good read Gson, thanks. I can't believe that the Padres sent that much for Clevinger. It was a haul IMO.

Getting Quantrill was a helluva get. A power arm that can control the ball. I look for him to blossom under the Indian's direction.

Cantillo looks to be the goods and is exactly the type of SP prospect the Indians excel at developing.

Arias, like you said, is perhaps the biggest get in this trade. He is also why I don't think acquiring more SS prospects in a Lindor trade will be done. Well, him along with Freeman, Rocchio, Rodriguez, and Tucker. That's ridiculous depth.

Naylor is only 23 and put up good(not great) numbers at every stop in the Minors while being severely younger than the average player. I see him being a guy that hits .280, gets on base decently, and gives you around 25 HR when all is said and done.

Miller is a nice player. He actually reminds me of Hernandez. Does everything very well, but nothing great. A good, steady player that could be a perfect replacement for Mike Freeman or replace Hernandez. We'll have to wait and see.

My comp for Owen Miller was Joey Wendle.. but. the amount of information I have is pretty skinny at this point.. he just seems like a Joey Wendle kind of character..

 

[sportscoach]

My comp for Owen Miller was Joey Wendle.. but. the amount of information I have is pretty skinny at this point.. he just seems like a Joey Wendle kind of character..

Scouting reports said a Mark Loretta type of bat (I thought Neil Walker) with a super utility ability defensively. So aka to me he is a Loretta bat that plays like Zobrist on defense.

 

[CDAV45]

Quantrill looks now to be a middle reliever. He throws too many pitches with not enough strikeouts to be a quality starter. He is potentially Nick Wittgren to pitch in the 7th or 8th. Not an awful thing to have but not a target in a deal for a top of the line starter. The one thing that could save the deal is constant injuries for Clevinger then any lottery ticket is better.

Couldn't disagree more, but that's alright. I think he's in the perfect organization to realize his potential as a SP. I'm not sure how you compare him to Wittgren when he consistently sits 94-96 and has 2 good offspeed pitches. He's got the build and mechanics that lean toward him being a SP as well. We'll see what happens.

 

[DCTribefan]

Scouting reports said a Mark Loretta type of bat (I thought Neil Walker) with a super utility ability defensively. So aka to me he is a Loretta bat that plays like Zobrist on defense.

These comps are exciting to read but let’s not get carried away.

 

[Gson]

It's monday..so it must be time for a New Lindor Deal: In the MLB Trade Rumors JotCast hosted by Tim Dierkes (rhymes with circus) with the subject being.. The Top 50 MLB Free Agents.. a question was presented that piqued my interest:

Somebody named "Derek" posed the question about Bauer to the Dodgers, but with Kershaw, Buehler, Price, Urias, May, and Gonsolin and Josiah Gray, they already are deep in starting pitchers. I’m not sure they’d be willing to make Bauer an offer without a corresponding trade or move....

Tim Dierkes responded: The Dodgers seem like a team that might be opportunistic in trying to acquire Lindor... (no further resolution)..

Any one of the final three would be okay as a starting point.. then add Keibert and a prospect.. call it a Lindor deal?..

Thoughts?