Moves the Indians should make for the 2nd half

[CDAV45]

That towell was thrown in on November 5th of 2020.. it was then that the final decision to "not compete" in 2021 was sealed with the notion and announcement that Francisco Lindor would be made available for trade.. Clevinger.. Bauer.. Kluber were already gone.. Santana = history.. More exits followed including and most importantly to the question, Carlos Carrasco.. The flowing red ink and lack of truly ml ready depth in the minor league system said.. the 2021 season is going to be a lean year..

At the halfway point of the 2021 season.. the Indians are clinging to a nearly .500 record (slightly above).. That is a wonderful result given the talent and situation within the division.. a division that is being ruled by a club that was fortold. as early as the fall of 2019, as the team that would be the class of the division in 2021.. a notion that was scoffed at due to the lack of pitching, btw..

...and suggesting there was a question about throwing in the towell.. just doesn't make a lot of sense.. that towell had the reds, yellows, oranges and browning leaves of late autumn laying on top.. having the chances to compete removed from the real world..

.. this reality.. engendered opinions and suggestions that had at its core a fear of just how deep the reload / rebuild was going to be.. Some posters were able to see the truth !! It was clear, and beyond any reasonable doubt that this was the time that the best players be considered for trade while holding out hope for the barest of chances to compete. The long term competitiveness and the short term belief that this team could compete in 2021 was at odds..

This desire to compete was, of course, from a narrow and desperate perspective.. The presence of others, aghast at the idea that a fatted calf was going to be traded.. pronounced that all of these guys need to be kept for the express purpose of competing.. or wait for some time in the future.. but while still under team control.. [shrug] A one year regrouping was the desperate hope.. imho..

thoughts?...

I don't really have an opinion on when the towel was thrown in because I never really believed that they couldn't contend. I didn't, and still don't believe that trading a "fattened calf" constitutes a rebuild. You have to know what the return is and none of us are afforded that information. Also, sometimes luck is your friend and this team hasn't had any to this point. What they've accomplished has been earned.

Let me ask a few questions aimed at the rest of the season and into next. Anyone here think that Miller or Freeman can't effectively replace Cesar? Anyone here think that Jones can't/won't effectively replace Eddie? Anyone here think that getting one C that can actually hit a baseball wouldn't help? Anyone think that having Bieber, Plesac, and Civale at the top of the rotation again won't be even better with the experience gained by Quantrill, Mejia, Morgan, Hentges, and now Garza who I think could be the best of that bunch? Anyone think that recalling a better hitting Gimenez and moving Amed to CF won't benefit this team?

"This team is on the verge" is the best description I can think of. A prudent move or 2 to address a couple of needs(they are few IMO) will/could make a world of difference. Add that in with guys like Freeman, Jones, and a few others real close to contributing then we have something.

 

[CDAV45]

Full on re-build. Jose for top prospects.

This core is not a good enough to win a championship at all… Move your best players cause they will not be here when the next window opens but those players you get in return might open that window sooner…

I'm neither for nor against it TBH, but either way, it doesn't mean a "full on re-build". What's the return?

This core is plenty good enough and it's going to get better real soon.

 

[Steve_424]

I'd move Cesar and Rosario for the best offers you can get. Play Amed at 2B, give CF to DJ and SS to Andres now, and RF to Nolan Jones in a few weeks.

2B-A. Rosario
SS-Gimenez
3B-J. Ramirez
DH-Reyes
LF-H. Ramirez
1B-Bradley
RF-Jones
C-Perez
CF-Johnson

 

[PIP]

I'm neither for nor against it TBH, but either way, it doesn't mean a "full on re-build". What's the return?

This core is plenty good enough and it's going to get better real soon.

Maybe it does. You’re banking on the unproven prospects to blend in with some of these guys and there’s no guarantees with that…

With there being no guarantees I would not mind trading someone like a Ramirez… Cashing in on him and getting (hopefully) a much better haul than what you got for Frankie…

A contending team having the ability to have him for 3 post seasons with a friendly contract ? By the time these guys come up later or next season, you may only get 1 post season out of Jose and no return ? You’re not gonna pay him regardless…

To me it’s simple… You’re not making the post season this season… That’s a contending team’s wasted opportunity for Jose…. You’re gonna need a team to gel and come together next season… Most likely not gonna make a run… (again, most likely)…

Now you enter his final year, no team control beyond that and he’s 2 years older and will cash in…

Jose right now could “potentially” bring you back a cornerstone player(s) that will be apart of the next run… I don’t see another run with Jose apart of it…

 

[CDAV45]

Maybe it does. You’re banking on the unproven prospects to blend in with some of these guys and there’s no guarantees with that…

With there being no guarantees I would not mind trading someone like a Ramirez… Cashing in on him and getting (hopefully) a much better haul than what you got for Frankie…

A contending team having the ability to have him for 3 post seasons with a friendly contract ? By the time these guys come up later or next season, you may only get 1 post season out of Jose and no return ? You’re not gonna pay him regardless…

To me it’s simple… You’re not making the post season this season… That’s a contending team’s wasted opportunity for Jose…. You’re gonna need a team to gel and come together next season… Most likely not gonna make a run… (again, most likely)…

Now you enter his final year, no team control beyond that and he’s 2 years older and will cash in…

Jose right now could “potentially” bring you back a cornerstone player(s) that will be apart of the next run… I don’t see another run with Jose apart of it…

You don't see the irony in your post? If I'm banking on the unproven prospects then what are you doing with trading Ramirez? There's an argument to be made from both sides IMO, but suggesting a "full on re-build" is 3 steps backwards IMO.

You're dismissing the idea of extending JRam and those talks have evidently already happened or are happening. There's no rush at this time. If it don't happen they will not make the same mistake they did with Lindor and it's a very different situation anyway.

It doesn't look like they will make the post season, but we haven't reached the AS break yet and we're missing our top 3 SP who happen to be pretty damn good. No team can survive that, but these guys aren't out indefinitely.

I can certainly see another run with Jose as a part of it. When healthy this team has a very good SP staff, one of the best BP in the league, some excellent core players like JRam, Reyes, Bieber, Plesac, Civale, Amed, and even Bradley going forward. We have Jones hitting well in Columbus. Gimenez hitting well in Columbus. Freeman continuing to hit the ball well. Miller picking it back up. HRam putting together a damn fine season. One of the best farm systems in baseball. All that adds up to a bright future IMO.

I'd have to see the return from a JRam trade to give an actual opinion of it. Either way, it doesn't constitute a re-build.

 

[CATS44]

If we hadn't lost Biebs, Plesac, and Civale...

The team we have right now would be a serious contender to take the division.

We are 27-12 in games they have started.

No way this team next season, if the rotation is reasonably healthy, isn't a contender.

 

[Benway]

I'm not sure E Rosario can be moved without taking on similar salary now. Cesar maybe.

 

[CDAV45]

I'd move Cesar and Rosario for the best offers you can get. Play Amed at 2B, give CF to DJ and SS to Andres now, and RF to Nolan Jones in a few weeks.

2B-A. Rosario
SS-Gimenez
3B-J. Ramirez
DH-Reyes
LF-H. Ramirez
1B-Bradley
RF-Jones
C-Perez
CF-Johnson

Pretty good idea Steve. I would be happy to see that as well.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

If we hadn't lost Biebs, Plesac, and Civale...

The team we have right now would be a serious contender to take the division.

We are 27-12 in games they have started.

No way this team next season, if the rotation is reasonably healthy, isn't a contender.

They could be a contender this year as well. As of July 3...

3.50: That’s the combined ERA for the Tribe in games started by Bieber, Civale and Plesac.

7.60: That’s the combined ERA for the Tribe in games started by everyone else. - Terry Pluto, July 3, Indians 42-36

We're 27-12 in games they started and that was when the team wasn't hitting as well as they are now. We also didn't have Franmil in some of those games.

Getting all three of them back in the second half along with an improved offense will make the Indians a pretty good team in 60% of their games. If we could just get either Mejia, Hentges, or McKenzie to step up and consistently deliver five decent innings we could win a lot of games in the second half.

The problem is that the schedule is more difficult and there will be more injuries. But if the other wild card teams have injuries to key starters in the second half that would be significant. If the Indians can get those starters back 100% by the end of this month they could make a run. Anybody remember that 23-game win streak a few years back?

If Franmil and Josie have strong second halves all bets are off. When those two get hot they can carry a team and everybody else relaxes and hits better. Eddie Rosario had a great month of June. When pitchers have to face Amed, Josie, Franmil, Eddie, Harold, and Bradley right in a row four times a game it's hard to escape unscathed.

It's going to take a lack of injuries plus some guys getting hot in the second half, but the potential is there for a lot of wins. In fact, that's normally the pattern with a Francona managed team - a second half surge.

 

[DCTribefan]

They could be a contender this year as well. As of July 3...

3.50: That’s the combined ERA for the Tribe in games started by Bieber, Civale and Plesac.

7.60: That’s the combined ERA for the Tribe in games started by everyone else. - Terry Pluto, July 3, Indians 42-36

We're 27-12 in games they started and that was when the team wasn't hitting as well as they are now. We also didn't have Franmil in some of those games.

Getting all three of them back in the second half along with an improved offense will make the Indians a pretty good team in 60% of their games. If we could just get either Mejia, Hentges, or McKenzie to step up and consistently deliver five decent innings we could win a lot of games in the second half.

The problem is that the schedule is more difficult and there will be more injuries. But if the other wild card teams have injuries to key starters in the second half that would be significant. If the Indians can get those starters back 100% by the end of this month they could make a run. Anybody remember that 23-game win streak a few years back?

If Franmil and Josie have strong second halves all bets are off. When those two get hot they can carry a team and everybody else relaxes and hits better. Eddie Rosario had a great month of June. When pitchers have to face Amed, Josie, Franmil, Eddie, Harold, and Bradley right in a row four times a game it's hard to escape unscathed.

It's going to take a lack of injuries plus some guys getting hot in the second half, but the potential is there for a lot of wins. In fact, that's normally the pattern with a Francona managed team - a second half surge.

Sounds like way too many ifs to overcome. I would rather set in motion a plan to better compete in 2022 and beyond.

 

[CATS44]

1) Does anybody really see a market for Eddie or Hernandez? A market consists of more than one team for there to be real value...or a huge hole at a position..but what contender has a need for an upgrade at second? Or a hurt left fielder?

2) IMO this team, if it ever gets healthy, could end up with the best record in the division after the deadline, but will have too much ground to make up. But the 'could' is dependent on more than just a healthy rotation. This team honestly has not played good, solid, baseball. Way too many mental lapses. They are playing as if they expect something to go wrong on every play.

3) Hernandez has usually been a significantly more productive player in the second half.

 

[AZ_]

The White Sox would be a decent fit for Hernandez.

Losing Madrigal for the season opened up a hole.

The Giants are another.

 

[Kevalier]

With Cesar Hernandez's trade value being rather low at the moment, wouldn't it best serve the Indians to hang onto him and pick up his club option for 2022 with the hope that he has a season closer to 2020 than 2021? If he isn't able to produce to the level of their liking by early June or so, then they can cut bait with him and bring up Tyler Freeman.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

With Cesar Hernandez's trade value being rather low at the moment, wouldn't it best serve the Indians to hang onto him and pick up his club option for 2022 with the hope that he has a season closer to 2020 than 2021? If he isn't able to produce to the level of their liking by early June or so, then they can cut bait with him and bring up Tyler Freeman.

I'd prefer to not have him blocking our youth.

Let Gimenez, Owen Miller, Freeman, Arias, and whoever else we want to bring up have their time to shine.

I'm not sure where the puzzle pieces are going to fit, but I know the Cesar Hernandez piece isn't even in the box of the puzzle that is our next WS contender.

Personally, I'd give Miller everyday AB's for the rest of the year. If it's not too late to find out what we have in him, that would be a nice use of the 2021 season.

Gimenez at short, Miller at second, Bradley at first. Put Amed in the OF (CF or a corner). Let's start to figure out the next phase of Indians baseball.

 

[33Y0]

I'd prefer to not have him blocking our youth.

Let Gimenez, Owen Miller, Freeman, Arias, and whoever else we want to bring up have their time to shine.

I'm not sure where the puzzle pieces are going to fit, but I know the Cesar Hernandez piece isn't even in the box of the puzzle that is our next WS contender.

Personally, I'd give Miller everyday AB's for the rest of the year. If it's not too late to find out what we have in him, that would be a nice use of the 2021 season.

Gimenez at short, Miller at second, Bradley at first. Put Amed in the OF (CF or a corner). Let's start to figure out the next phase of Indians baseball.

This is where I’m at as well. I’d rather have a better idea heading into next season what we have and what we need. Give the young guys as much playing time as possible so in the offseason we can asses our needs better.