Pitching

[thestatman]

As remarkable as this bullpen is now, the ceiling will be even higher when Nick Sandlin and Sam Hentges get called up this season. Sandlin, Karinchak and Clase... Look out.

Agree on Sandlin disagree on Hentges. Kyle Nelson is the better option. Pretty much lights out his whole career.

 

[sportscoach]

Agree on Sandlin disagree on Hentges. Kyle Nelson is the better option. Pretty much lights out his whole career.

Hentges and Gose both have 99/100 MPH fastballs. It wouldn't surprise me at one point this season we see one or both of them. Nelson is the better actual pitcher in a sense.

 

[jup]

so @jup what percentage of pictures would you say use sticky? just watching a game it seems like every pitcher does this (or some form of it).

So when it comes to "stickey", it is probably easier to talk about who doesn't versus who does.

Little hard to say at any snap shot in time, but you are talking 75% to 80% at least I would say, and it is getting worse with each passing year.

Talking about the Cleveland staff a few years back. Of Clevinger, Kluber, Carrasco, Salazar, Bauer, Tomlin, Plutko. Only 2 didn't use it at the time. A year later only 1. In the pen, too many names to cover, but the starting rotation gives you the time frame - all used it in one form or another. And I would say that is pretty typical around the league

There are several reasons it will only get worse. One of the main drivers is the knowledge of the advantage it is. Before pitchers might think it was an advantage because they could grip the ball better or it seemed like hitters had more trouble hitting it or ... But now it is documented, quantified, and publicized. And with the ability to measure the spin effects, comes the ability to train them. So a quick little example should suffice.

There are showcases for HS aged kids. Perfect Game probably the biggest and most well know. When one of my kids is going to one of those showcases, I let them know right up front that they will be competing against guys using "stickey" and if they want to get on the map for drafting and college scholarships, they will be at a disadvantage if they don't use it.

So kids are getting trained at a very young age how to use it. And once they do, it follows them through college and the minor leagues, eventually ending up in the big leagues. And you would be very hard pressed to find a top D1 pitcher out there today that isn't using it. Because it is part of the reason they are "top D1 pitchers". Vanderbilt may have the most illustrious history of "stickey" use. And it dates way back to the days of the rise of the program. Talking David Price on up through Minor, Gray, Buehler and too many more to name.

 

[Alabuckeye]

So.....effectively if say 96% of the pitchers are using it.....is it 'cheating'? Of course it is a pitching over hitting advantage, but if my guy is using it just like your guy is using.....the relative effect is muted over say a situation where ONLY Houston is using it......

 

[jup]

So.....effectively if say 96% of the pitchers are using it.....is it 'cheating'? Of course it is a pitching over hitting advantage, but if my guy is using it just like your guy is using.....the relative effect is muted over say a situation where ONLY Houston is using it......

Always will be guys who know how to use it better than others. But that gap is closing with the technology that has flooded into baseball over the last 3 or 4 years. Now teams know how to train "the usage", as in the desired outcomes as far as spin axis for the type movement that will be best suited for the increased spin rates.

And don't forget, there is a lot of levels of "stickyness" out there. Some work better in cold weather, some in humid, some in hot. So the guys that are the best at the usage, have formulations that fit the conditions. Now that Bauer jumped on board, looks like he is one of the smartest rats out there, given his overall spin rates rest consistently at the top of the lists.

 

[NEOLeo]

I think Jup’s point about how many are using it is exactly why people like Karinchak don’t even try to hide it. If Hinch asks the umps to check Karinchak’s glove then Tito would do the same for every one of Detroit’s pitchers. It’s the biggest unkept secret in the game. May as well make it legal.

 

[sportscoach]

Always will be guys who know how to use it better than others. But that gap is closing with the technology that has flooded into baseball over the last 3 or 4 years. Now teams know how to train "the usage", as in the desired outcomes as far as spin axis for the type movement that will be best suited for the increased spin rates.

And don't forget, there is a lot of levels of "stickyness" out there. Some work better in cold weather, some in humid, some in hot. So the guys that are the best at the usage, have formulations that fit the conditions. Now that Bauer jumped on board, looks like he is one of the smartest rats out there, given his overall spin rates rest consistently at the top of the lists.

Jup would baseball ever consider just making one type of sticky legal (behind the scenes) to stop all the other illegal actions you could say?

 

[jup]

Jup would baseball ever consider just making one type of sticky legal (behind the scenes) to stop all the other illegal actions you could say?

It sounds like that is the way it is actually headed. It is what Bauer has been telling them for years.

Because the ability to police it is almost intractable. You have chain of custody issues with the ball itself if you think you are going to take it out of play and test it.. You have no idea where the substance got on the ball from the ump on down because it is legal for other players to use "stickey" and they do.

Umps handle other balls and bats and they all have "stickey" on them. So who is to say the ump didn't get it on the ball.

Many SS have "stickey" all over the inside of their gloves and many pitchers will regularly throw balls out that they get back from infielders because of that.

And then you have catchers. If I am a pitcher, I just tell my catcher to rub my peculiar formula on the inside of his glove. Even if the ump collects the ball after freshly throwing it out to the pitcher, he has to wait for a pitch to be thrown before they can collect it for analysis. Which requires a catcher to catch it.

If they do the inspection thing - are they going to stick their hands down pitchers pants for those they keep it inside the belt buckle or inside the waist band ? Shove their fingers in their mouth for those that apply it that way ?

So one substance that everyone gets accustomed to using, and hitters gradually adjust to the lift/break the ball is given makes the most sense.

Then the smart rats will have to learn how to vary usage so the hitter still doesn't know what he is getting - enhanced spin or not.

Ha Ha Ha - never going to end. Pandora is out of the box

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Is this that much different from batters wearing batting gloves or using pine tar on the bat handle or wide receivers wearing gloves that enable them to grip the ball better than bare hands?

 

[Amherstcavsfan]

How many times do you need to be told that this isn't the place to discuss this?

 

[MattyFos.]

You guys just can't help yourselves can you

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

There's a message in the moderator thread.

Back to baseball. Please.

 

[Sebastian]

 

[WhoAzcue]

In another thread someone asked what "quality start" was and was told (correctly) that most people refer to this unofficial stat as six innings, three earned runs. Of course, most people don't consider this a standard of excellence at all, but more a recognition that the guy gave your team innings and probably didn't pitch you out of the game. And there's value in that, certainly, but it varies from team to team and year to year as to how valuable such an outing really is. From my point of view, it would be more appropriate to call a 6IP/3R outing an "acceptable" start rather than a "quality" start.

I bring this all up because I heard an interesting comment on a Tigers podcast today while they were discussing Matt Boyd's better outings this year vs. what they saw from him in '20 or the second half of '19. One of the guys casually mentioned that 7 IP/3 R was actually a tipping point, that the chances of winning a game where a starter gives you 7 IP/3 R is precisely 50-50. That surprised me; I would have thought it was higher than that, and if the number were true, then common definitions of a "quality start" (6IP/3R) are even more deceptive; how can a start be "quality" if your team's chances of winning with such an outing is demonstrably less than 50%?

Now, of course, the value of 7 IP/3 R (or even 6 IP) outings has larger benefits than the 50% (or less) winning outcomes for that day's game. Keeping a bullpen fresh via deep outings by starters have a lasting effect which could increase chances of winning subsequent games.

 

[Benway]

Y'know, when I finally understood how very widespread the use of PED's had become in MLB, I lost a lot of enthusiasm for the sport. The Indians, In my opinion, were certainly at the head of the curve when it came to using.

My reaction to the Sticky situation is not quite the same, being blunted by our history of PED use and the fact that there's no actual physical "modification" of athletes occurring, though this sure puts a spin on the success that our franchise has had developing pitching stars.

Cleveland has been blessed with the most competitive quarter century in our baseball history, and we owe it all to our openness to, shall we say, "Outside the box" thinking.