Ricky Rubio - Take the Money and Limp

[buzzdog]

Sorry, I got lazy in my wording, I should have referred to it as starter-type minutes. IMO, if a team is going to invest three consecutive high lottery picks, then during crunch-time, they we better be able to take advantage of all three of them. If we can't consistently trust a lineup that consists of Collin/Darius/Isaac at the same time, then I think that's a major concern.

To your point, there will be games where that combination works fine thanks to the particular lineup the opponent is trotting out there down the stretch. But the name of the game is exploiting mismatches, and I don't believe that we will see many games that really matter where the opponent trots out a lineup where Sexton/Garland/Okoro can share the floor without running into a mismatch.

Bottom line when push comes to shove you go with the guys with the hot hand and the matchups that are working that particular night. But the NBA season is a long one. Good teams ice some players for awhile then pull them out and the guys end up winning them a playoff series.

You're oversimplifying to act like we need a set top 5 players to start and then play crunch time minutes. Today's NBA doesn't quite work that way, very few guys play all the minutes even in critical minutes. You simply have to have different options because teams can shut down just about any given player or any given player can be having an off night when all the chips are on the table.

Talent wins, period. You should never give away talent unless you think you're getting equal or better talent back. I'm not opposed to trading sexton, Garland, Allen, Okoro, or anybody else as long as you get something truly equivalent in return. I think people undervalue Sexton here because of fit while they understate his value in terms of offense and effort/example.

As a general rule I prefer the stereotype players, guys with length/athleticism/skills. Neither Sexton of Garland fit the stereotype but they've won me over with other qualities. It's up to Koby and JBB to either figure put how to utilize their talents and surround them with complimentary players, or to make trades that bring back better combinations of fit and talent.

 

[buzzdog]

I think getting Rubio was an indication that they want to just run back Sexton, Garland, and Okoro as starters but won't run them all together as much.

I just don't know if a lineup with both Rubio and Okoro at PG and SG will exist with our current depth of wings and bigs. Can we put together enough 3pt shooting to make up for those two sharing the floor together?

I only think that pairing happens with injuries to the others. Otherwise there's no reason to rotate things that way.

 

[inliner311]

I seen Garland and Sexton. Collin subs out first and Rubio comes in. Sexton comes back in when Garland gets his first breather. Essentially, Sexton will be the de facto two on offense for all minutes he’s on the floor now. Will still get opportunities to handle and attack, but Garland and Rubio will play 48 minutes collectively of PG and will run the majority of the plays.

Certain lineups will see Okoro at two, but he’ll start at SF

Nance will come in off the bench and will sometimes play SF, sometimes, PF.

I could see us keeping at least two of Sexton, Garland, and Mobley on the floor at all times. Maybe Sexton and Garland share the floor the most together against second units to reduce their defensive liabilities.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Rather than argue semantics, can you think of any team that has moved their leading scorer from being a starter to being a "sixth man?"

A team would have to be memorable to think of a team like that, and last season's Cavs team won't be remembered.

Tanking teams probably have this situation. Lou Williams definitely led tanking teams in scoring and came off the bench.

Off the top of my head, I think Blue Edwards led a bad Bucks team in scoring and came off the bench later.

Point here is that Colin Sexton isn't above the sixth man role... that's where JB wanted him last winter! Why wouldn't he juggle the roster to make it happen now?

 

[bs80]

Bottom line when push comes to shove you go with the guys with the hot hand and the matchups that are working that particular night. But the NBA season is a long one. Good teams ice some players for awhile then pull them out and the guys end up winning them a playoff series.

You're oversimplifying to act like we need a set top 5 players to start and then play crunch time minutes. Today's NBA doesn't quite work that way, very few guys play all the minutes even in critical minutes. You simply have to have different options because teams can shut down just about any given player or any given player can be having an off night when all the chips are on the table.

Fair enough. I did go back and try to clarify that I agree with you that the "starter" designation isn't what matters to me. Like you, I want to be playing my best lineup down the stretch in important games. No argument from me on that.

Talent wins, period. You should never give away talent unless you think you're getting equal or better talent back. I'm not opposed to trading sexton, Garland, Allen, Okoro, or anybody else as long as you get something truly equivalent in return. I think people undervalue Sexton here because of fit while they understate his value in terms of offense and effort/example.

I'm in total agreement. I've grown to really love and appreciate Sexton in so many ways. I absolutely do not want to dump him just for the sake of trading his ass. I just personally feel that there are teams out there that would value Collin more than we would given the current makeup of our roster. And if those teams were to come to the table with a trade proposal that actually reflected that, then I am in favor of moving forward.

As a general rule I prefer the stereotype players, guys with length/athleticism/skills. Neither Sexton of Garland fit the stereotype but they've won me over with other qualities. It's up to Koby and JBB to either figure put how to utilize their talents and surround them with complimentary players, or to make trades that bring back better combinations of fit and talent.

Agree 100% with everything here as well. I think that you and I actually see things eye-to-eye more than we may have initially thought. My main thing is that I think Collin (or even Darius or Isaac for that matter) have some fantastic attributes, but while all three of them may not be able to all play heavy minutes when they are all teammates, another team may be able to make better use of their skillsets. Obviously since we are the team that has problems making them fit together, we aren't starting from the best position in terms of trade negotiations, but all it takes is more than one team out there that sees what we see in Collin to form a nice trade market for him.

 

[buzzdog]

I think "sixth man" is somewhat of an outdated term. No team really runs with a 5 man rotation set in stone with a 6th guy coming off the bench like Microwave used to with the Pistons.

Now rotations are mixed and matched a lot more, go with the hot hand, the favorable matchup. Really good players sit the bench sometimes, then that same guy might be called on to save the season.

You just need as many top quality players as possible. If you achieve that then good players who could/would be key starters on another team might just end up riding the pine during crunch time on any given night. then the next night that guy might hit the game winner.

Everyone needs to adapt to that reality, players and fans alike.

 

[Nathan S]

A team would have to be memorable to think of a team like that, and last season's Cavs team won't be remembered.

Tanking teams probably have this situation. Lou Williams definitely led tanking teams in scoring and came off the bench.

Off the top of my head, I think Blue Edwards led a bad Bucks team in scoring and came off the bench later.

Point here is that Colin Sexton isn't above the sixth man role... that's where JB wanted him last winter! Why wouldn't he juggle the roster to make it happen now?

If the Cavs bench Sexton they absolutely will be remembered...and not in a good way.

How do you do such a bad job with roster construction that you end up benching a young star player in a contract year? Benching Sexton is a great step towards losing him for peanuts in a trade 4 months later and then hearing a lot of "I don't want to play in Cleveland" from talented young players for the next decade.

And no, I don't think there's a way to spin this as some sort of promotion to a super 6th-man role.

 

[buzzdog]

Fair enough. I did go back and try to clarify that I agree with you that the "starter" designation isn't what matters to me. Like you, I want to be playing my best lineup down the stretch in important games. No argument from me on that.


I'm in total agreement. I've grown to really love and appreciate Sexton in so many ways. I absolutely do not want to dump him just for the sake of trading his ass. I just personally feel that there are teams out there that would value Collin more than we would given the current makeup of our roster. And if those teams were to come to the table with a trade proposal that actually reflected that, then I am in favor of moving forward.


Agree 100% with everything here as well. I think that you and I actually see things eye-to-eye more than we may have initially thought. My main thing is that I think Collin (or even Darius or Isaac for that matter) have some fantastic attributes, but while all three of them may not be able to all play heavy minutes when they are all teammates, another team may be able to make better use of their skillsets. Obviously since we are the team that has problems making them fit together, we aren't starting from the best position in terms of trade negotiations, but all it takes is more than one team out there that sees what we see in Collin to form a nice trade market for him.

Right, I don't see any of this as a disagreement. I do tend to push back against any insinuation or opinion that we should just get rid of a guy like Sexton because of fit. I really look forward to seeing if Rubio can be a glue guy. I also think players can possibly figure some things out and learn to play together, minimize their deficiencies and maximize their advantages. But that's never a given.

I'm glad that the Cavs management placed a high value on sexton when they fielded all the off season calls. Same thing with Mobley, good to see us just do the simple smart thing.

If somebody really came to us with some serious value for any of these guys then to be sure I'm all in favor of making a trade. But I get tired of certain other people badmouthing our players that have proven their talent, stating opinions that trades are eminent and inevitable that never happen, so on and so forth.

If we make any quality transactions, cool. If we run with the guys we have on the roster right now, I'm good with that too. But I'd like to see some more swing players/small forwards on the roster before we go forward with the other pieces we currently have.

 

[bs80]

Right, I don't see any of this as a disagreement. I do tend to push back against any insinuation or opinion that we should just get rid of a guy like Sexton because of fit. I really look forward to seeing if Rubio can be a glue guy. I also think players can possibly figure some things out and learn to play together, minimize their deficiencies and maximize their advantages. But that's never a given.

I'm glad that the Cavs management placed a high value on sexton when they fielded all the off season calls. Same thing with Mobley, good to see us just do the simple smart thing.

If somebody really came to us with some serious value for any of these guys then to be sure I'm all in favor of making a trade. But I get tired of certain other people badmouthing our players that have proven their talent, stating opinions that trades are eminent and inevitable that never happen, so on and so forth.

If we make any quality transactions, cool. If we run with the guys we have on the roster right now, I'm good with that too. But I'd like to see some more swing players/small forwards on the roster before we go forward with the other pieces we currently have.

Cool man. I can share your sentiment that dogging Collin after all the improvement he's made rubs me the wrong way. In a perfect world, we'd be able to trade Sexton for a comparably talented young wing, so I'll continue to hope for that to come to fruition. But to dump Collin for shits and giggles? No way.

Now should the FO end up keeping him around for this year, we'll see a whole new set of arguments come up when it comes to how much we should be willing to pay him, but we aren't quite there yet. Let's hope that we either get equitable return for him in a trade, or that he balls the fuck out this year to the point where he actually deserves the max.

 

[ryanf]

I remember last season the cavs played their best when dante exum is in the rotation. I think rubio will have that role with the added benefit of health and better playmaking.

Plus... i'm hoping rubio does what cp3 did to the suns. Organize the young squad and be the veteran leader in the locker room.

 

[Randolphkeys]

If the Cavs bench Sexton they absolutely will be remembered...and not in a good way.

How do you do such a bad job with roster construction that you end up benching a young star player in a contract year? Benching Sexton is a great step towards losing him for peanuts in a trade 4 months later and then hearing a lot of "I don't want to play in Cleveland" from talented young players for the next decade.

And no, I don't think there's a way to spin this as some sort of promotion to a super 6th-man role.

Bro, that's asinine.

How did Jordan Clarkson average over 18 points per game this season "benched" by this definition?

Three years ago Lou Williams averaged over 20 for the Clippers "benched."

How does Scottie Barnes get selected #4 overall last night "benched" by the Seminoles?

You are using a triggering term that has nothing to do with Sexton's likely role. It's wildly misleading.

 

[NMCav]

Bro, that's asinine.

How did Jordan Clarkson average over 18 points per game this season "benched" by this definition?

Three years ago Lou Williams averaged over 20 for the Clippers "benched."

How does Scottie Barnes get selected #4 overall last night "benched" by the Seminoles?

You are using a triggering term that has nothing to do with Sexton's likely role. It's wildly misleading.

Not just Barnes. Also Patrick Williams in 2020 from FSU was their Sixthman and Kabengele a late first rounder in 2019 was also the sixthman at FSU. Being a sixthman is certainly not a negative espcially if that's where your skill set fits best.

 

[mds]

Don’t forget Dion!

 

[NMCav]

Don’t forget Dion!

Yes Dion was also a top 5 pick as a sixthman in college. And going back 16 years Marvin Williams was picked 2nd after being the sixthman at UNC.

 

[Blazie]

Bro, that's asinine.

How did Jordan Clarkson average over 18 points per game this season "benched" by this definition?

Three years ago Lou Williams averaged over 20 for the Clippers "benched."

How does Scottie Barnes get selected #4 overall last night "benched" by the Seminoles?

You are using a triggering term that has nothing to do with Sexton's likely role. It's wildly misleading.

You do understand that the time for that move has long since passed. The Cavs fucked up his development from the beginning. We should have stuck him at the 1, taken our lumps, and forced him to be serviceable there as a playmaker.

And if we were going to move him into a bench role, it should have happened last year at the latest. But you just can't reduce the role of your best scorer and most dedicated player in a contract year, after you spent the last half a year trying to trade him.

Who the hell else would trust this team's leadership with their careers going forward? Are guys like Allen and Mobley going to look at how we treated the hardest working, most reliable guy on the team and then go "yeah, i can tell that I should totally trust these nimrods with the next 5 years of my life"?

Benching Sexton now is just one of those moves your rivals use to convince people that your FO has no idea what the fuck they're doing.