The 2021 Cleveland Baseball Organization

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Mott the Hoople

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The team known as the Cleveland Indians has 9 home games left in their existence. They have been in the American League and playing in this town for over 100 years. Generations have been born, lived their lives, and died as Indian fans.
You would think somebody, anybody, in the organization would like to bring that to our attention. It's almost like their embarrassed to still
be called the Indians. The last email I got from the Indians was an offer to buy the old cap, with the same old logo.
Whether you are for or against the name change, I think something should be done to celebrate the Cleveland Indians.

Here is a suggestion, and I'd like to hear others suggestions too.
Bring back Rocky Colavito and sign him to a 1 game ceremonial contract. So Rocky can be The Last Cleveland Indian.
 

DCTribefan

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Chiefs fan didn’t seem embarrassed about their team name today.
 

CATS44

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Plate discipline is a skill and it can be developed. I'm not saying that's what is happening by any means. Just that there is likely more than one way to skin that cat. Truth be told it's probably a better effort to recognize young hitters and a better development program.

We are somewhat in agreement, but not fully.

An example:

If you go back and read scouting reports on Johnson from the time he was drafted onward, you will often see the word toolsy.

If you do the same with Freeman, you will see phrases like 'skills over tools'.

In the past we have drafted or otherwise acquired too many kids with tools, but not very many with actual baseball skills.

There is a vast difference between an athlete and a baseball player.

A MLB baseball player doesn't necessarily have be athletic, but an athlete HAS to have baseball skills if he wants to play in MLB.

My guess is that if you ran Johnson and Freeman thru the kind of athletic tests that are given to football and basketball players, Freeman wouldn't look very good in comparison. But if you put them up against live pitching, not batting practice, it would be an entirely different story...the same with base running drills.

Skills can be learned to some extent, just as advanced mathematics can be taught. But just like in baseball, students of advanced math are much likelier to succeed if they show up in class with a solid foundation in basic math.

In some cases, we have been acquiring kids who need to take remedial classes in how to hit a baseball.

Twenty five years ago I attended a clinic put on by a highly successful college baseball coach...successful enough that he was chosen to coach American teams for Olympic and Pan Am competition.

Afterwards, he was kind enough to spend some time with me....and two things struck me.

First, he said that he recruited shortstops almost exclusively, because if they could play shortstop, they could usually play other positions. Sound like any organization we know?

Secondly, he said that many of the players he brought in had absolutely destroyed high school pitching without ever learning how to correctly hit a baseball. They were usually so full of their own success that he didn't even bother to try to correct them at the beginning.

He just had them bat against his best pitchers, who usually busted them inside under their hands. Their big swings were helpless.

A month of that in the winter had them begging to learn how to hit a baseball properly, and the remedial classes would begin.
 

CDAV45

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Nope, those grown adult men in face paint and full Native American dress are definitely the folks we should be emulating, though.

Broad thinkers, I’m sure. :chuckle:
Probably slightly broader than the thought that went into the post and all the assumptions that derived it, but carry on my good soldier. Wield your sword on that big, beautiful white horse.
 

CDAV45

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The team known as the Cleveland Indians has 9 home games left in their existence. They have been in the American League and playing in this town for over 100 years. Generations have been born, lived their lives, and died as Indian fans.
You would think somebody, anybody, in the organization would like to bring that to our attention. It's almost like their embarrassed to still
be called the Indians. The last email I got from the Indians was an offer to buy the old cap, with the same old logo.
Whether you are for or against the name change, I think something should be done to celebrate the Cleveland Indians.

Here is a suggestion, and I'd like to hear others suggestions too.
Bring back Rocky Colavito and sign him to a 1 game ceremonial contract. So Rocky can be The Last Cleveland Indian.
I just want to move on from it. I'd guess many feel the same. At this point it is what it is going to be.
 

CDAV45

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We are somewhat in agreement, but not fully.

An example:

If you go back and read scouting reports on Johnson from the time he was drafted onward, you will often see the word toolsy.

If you do the same with Freeman, you will see phrases like 'skills over tools'.

In the past we have drafted or otherwise acquired too many kids with tools, but not very many with actual baseball skills.

There is a vast difference between an athlete and a baseball player.

A MLB baseball player doesn't necessarily have be athletic, but an athlete HAS to have baseball skills if he wants to play in MLB.

My guess is that if you ran Johnson and Freeman thru the kind of athletic tests that are given to football and basketball players, Freeman wouldn't look very good in comparison. But if you put them up against live pitching, not batting practice, it would be an entirely different story...the same with base running drills.

Skills can be learned to some extent, just as advanced mathematics can be taught. But just like in baseball, students of advanced math are much likelier to succeed if they show up in class with a solid foundation in basic math.

In some cases, we have been acquiring kids who need to take remedial classes in how to hit a baseball.

Twenty five years ago I attended a clinic put on by a highly successful college baseball coach...successful enough that he was chosen to coach American teams for Olympic and Pan Am competition.

Afterwards, he was kind enough to spend some time with me....and two things struck me.

First, he said that he recruited shortstops almost exclusively, because if they could play shortstop, they could usually play other positions. Sound like any organization we know?

Secondly, he said that many of the players he brought in had absolutely destroyed high school pitching without ever learning how to correctly hit a baseball. They were usually so full of their own success that he didn't even bother to try to correct them at the beginning.

He just had them bat against his best pitchers, who usually busted them inside under their hands. Their big swings were helpless.

A month of that in the winter had them begging to learn how to hit a baseball properly, and the remedial classes would begin.
I understand where you're coming from CATS, but we'll probably never fully agree on the matter and that's perfectly fine. I respect your ideas even if it isn't the route I'd take or believe the Indians will take either. I'll believe they are going to field a team full of converted MIFers when I see it. I'm not worried about seeing it because it isn't going to happen, and for good reason.

Johnson is a very bad example for your point because not only did he hit for average as a minor league player, but he got on base at a very good clip as well. His power is what earned him minor league player of the year in the Nationals system for the 2017 season. It just so happens that Robles and Soto were also in that system too. Outside of the season he broke his hamate bone, his numbers are fantastic. They believed he had the athletic ability to stick in CF, and with his offensive profile thought they had something special. Like most prospects his minor league success hasn't translated yet. I don't know if DJ hit his ceiling, if the Cleveland system lacks in hitter development, or a combination of both. I think there is an argument for either reason.

Trying to determine successful major league hitters in high school is a crap shoot at best. There is a plethora of reasons a kid in high school gets drafted, but just hitting high school pitching well isn't one of them. Size, speed, quickness, movement, arm strength and a host of other physical abilities are the biggest factors and they'll continue to be. Then there is the behavioral/mental factors as well.

So which of these MIFers that you speak of is being transitioned into corner OFers? It's more likely that they use that MIF depth to acquire a good corner OFer or 2 as they don't seem very good at drafting or developing them.
 

AZ_

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Probably slightly broader than the thought that went into the post and all the assumptions that derived it, but carry on my good soldier. Wield your sword on that big, beautiful white horse.

The unintentional irony and lack of self awareness here is a bit much, for me.

I know who I am. Maybe one day you can say the same.
 

CATS44

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You can not project most individual teenage prospects with any reasonable accuracy. But you can project a profile, and if you amass enough teenagers that fit that profile, you have a high certainty that a few will succeed.

The profile that has the best rate of future success begins with a superior hit tool.

The three most valuable assets for a farm system are SPs, catchers, and MIFs that can hit.

Nolan Jones was drafted as a SS. Baerga, Robbie, Chisenhall, Jose, Lindor, Juan Uribe, Mark Reynolds....all began as MIFs, and hit well enough to become or could have become outfielders.

You give me eight Baergas, Robbies, Joses, or Lindors...and I will field them at every position..except catcher...including DH...and run away with the division, if I have our pitching staff.

Two had no power in the minors, two had a little. Overall, the MIF prospects we have now have more power than those four did.

If our MIFs can hit, there will be a position for them.

Or we will trade them for what we need. There is always a market for MIFs that can hit.
 

Wham with the Right Hand

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The team known as the Cleveland Indians has 9 home games left in their existence. They have been in the American League and playing in this town for over 100 years. Generations have been born, lived their lives, and died as Indian fans.
You would think somebody, anybody, in the organization would like to bring that to our attention. It's almost like their embarrassed to still
be called the Indians. The last email I got from the Indians was an offer to buy the old cap, with the same old logo.
Whether you are for or against the name change, I think something should be done to celebrate the Cleveland Indians.

Here is a suggestion, and I'd like to hear others suggestions too.
Bring back Rocky Colavito and sign him to a 1 game ceremonial contract. So Rocky can be The Last Cleveland Indian.
The organization doesn't see anything to celebrate about the name "Indians", which is why they changed it. I don't think the Washington football team had any kind of retirement ceremony to honor the name "Redskins".
 

macbdog

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The team known as the Cleveland Indians has 9 home games left in their existence. They have been in the American League and playing in this town for over 100 years. Generations have been born, lived their lives, and died as Indian fans.
You would think somebody, anybody, in the organization would like to bring that to our attention. It's almost like their embarrassed to still
be called the Indians. The last email I got from the Indians was an offer to buy the old cap, with the same old logo.
Whether you are for or against the name change, I think something should be done to celebrate the Cleveland Indians.

Here is a suggestion, and I'd like to hear others suggestions too.
Bring back Rocky Colavito and sign him to a 1 game ceremonial contract. So Rocky can be The Last Cleveland Indian.
Meh. It's a name change. The team or players arent going anywhere (yet). I think the team does something; they already made commemorative tickets for the last homestand. Probably have something planned. If they wanted to do something meaningful, they would have signed FAs that actually helped and gone out on a winning note. But that wasn't possible, so we get what we get.
 

Gson

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"similar but not the same" adage:

"..you play for the name on the front of the jersey..not the back.."

the cleveland name on the away jersey's remain as the cleveland franchise.. Guardians or Indians.. they represent Cleveland..
 

B Mac

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The organization doesn't see anything to celebrate about the name "Indians", which is why they changed it. I don't think the Washington football team had any kind of retirement ceremony to honor the name "Redskins".


Tough position. I'm sure the owners, front office, marketing, management, etc.. want to, if for no other reason than to generate some more ticket sales. BUT is the expense of any additional negative headlines really worth a few extra thousand in ticket sales?

Better to let the name slip quietly into the night and move on to the next era.
 

jup

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Tough position. I'm sure the owners, front office, marketing, management, etc.. want to, if for no other reason than to generate some more ticket sales. BUT is the expense of any additional negative headlines really worth a few extra thousand in ticket sales?

Better to let the name slip quietly into the night and move on to the next era.
Its chicken shit.

But that is corporate America today. More worried about virtue signaling than any kind of traditions. And the 100 years of an American icon that the Indians franchise has been should be able to be celebrated for what it has been.

Maybe the moniker isn't a fit in todays society, but that does not diminish or change the past 100 years. And the Indians should have the balls to stand up and honor their own history while acknowledging that times have changed. The Indian franchise has been more than just a name.
 
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