The 2021 Cleveland Baseball Organization

[DJJOE]

Actually, I'm probably being disingenuous by using season ticket prices instead of single game prices.

Let's take a look at what single game ticket prices were during the 2019 season.

Oh, well would you look at that... $17 per ticket, fifteen cents cheaper than my season ticket prices.

@DJJOE do you have another bullshit narrative you want to try? Next time, I'd recommend starting with facts and then using those facts to tell a story--instead of making up a bullshit story and just wishing really hard that the facts support whatever feelings you have on the topic.

Ticket price and a fan's willingness to pay that price are 'different'. What was that $17 ticket worth to the buyer? Apparently, it wasn't worth $17 to numbers sufficient to fill the discarded seats. Nor was that price sufficient to fill the remaining seats. Does any of that count as BS narrative? Was it worth revisiting 2-3 times to put some distance between your "people weren't showing up to the games so it made sense to use that space for something different" howler?

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Ticket price and a fan's willingness to pay that price are 'different'. What was that $17 ticket worth to the buyer? Apparently, it wasn't worth $17 to numbers sufficient to fill the discarded seats. Nor was that price sufficient to fill the remaining seats. Does any of that count as BS narrative? Was it worth revisiting 2-3 times to put some distance between your "people weren't showing up to the games so it made sense to use that space for something different" howler?

You started this conversation.

Your hypothesis was that seats were removed in order to artificially generate scarcity.

In a season where the Indians average attendance was 18,659, and the ballpark's capacity was 42,404, you made up the narrative that the decision to remodel and reduce capacity to 35,041 was driven by a desire to generate scarcity, and that was pushing you out.

I showed you evidence that this wasn't the case--that ticket prices weren't driven up, and the bogeyman you created of artificial scarcity in fact does not exist.

Your choice is to double-down? That's a bold strategy. I don't see it working out for you.

If you want to move the goalposts and somehow claim that the lack of attendance justifies your initial post, I'd ask you to explain how both scarcity (prices being driven up because tickets are sold out) and surplus (the evidence that the tickets are not sold out) somehow both validate your hypothesis.

And yes, when you make up things that don't have a basis in reality, it is worth it to call out bad arguments and show why they're bad. If nothing else, it gives me something to do while sitting on a muted meeting. When someone shows you why you're wrong, the defense of "Lol you wasted so much time doing this!" isn't really a good one.

 

[DJJOE]

You started this conversation.

Your hypothesis was that seats were removed in order to artificially generate scarcity.

In a season where the Indians average attendance was 18,659, and the ballpark's capacity was 42,404, you made up the narrative that the decision to remodel and reduce capacity to 35,041 was driven by a desire to generate scarcity, and that was pushing you out.

I showed you evidence that this wasn't the case--that ticket prices weren't driven up, and the bogeyman you created of artificial scarcity in fact does not exist.

Your choice is to double-down? That's a bold strategy. I don't see it working out for you.

If you want to move the goalposts and somehow claim that the lack of attendance justifies your initial post, I'd ask you to explain how both scarcity (prices being driven up because tickets are sold out) and surplus (the evidence that the tickets are not sold out) somehow both validate your hypothesis.

And yes, when you make up things that don't have a basis in reality, it is worth it to call out bad arguments and show why they're bad. If nothing else, it gives me something to do while sitting on a muted meeting. When someone shows you why you're wrong, the defense of "Lol you wasted so much time doing this!" isn't really a good one.

You'll need to look again for intent as my hypothesis. "What happened?" Where do you find an implication of intent or, even sillier, that their intent was "driven by a desire...(blather edited out)? You're going full Emily Litella on me. When do you give me the "Never mind."?

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Well, I think this conversation has run its course.

I'm not sure how you can post this bolded:

Maybe we don't think about ownership because they do our thinking for us. When capacity is reduced by 8,000 seats what's happened? A scarcity, expected to lift attendance, is created that marginalizes a set of fans whose arithmetic doesn't allow adjusting to hot-ticket pricing. It's like finding your restaurant seating creeping ever nearer to the restrooms as you age and uglify. You aren't a preferred part of their desired audience. You get it. You act accordingly. You laugh at their hot dogs.

Then chastise someone for actually responding to the words you wrote. My apologies for thinking there was a discussion to be had with you. Clearly there is not.

 

[Gson]

You'll need to look again for intent as my hypothesis. "What happened?" Where do you find an implication of intent or, even sillier, that their intent was "driven by a desire...(blather edited out)? You're going full Emily Litella on me. When do you give me the "Never mind."?

You have to "earn" a nevermind....

Yes.. the reduction in the number of seats parlayed into a vastly more beneficial social setting, now called the Corner... It drives a younger crowd to that area.. for good reason.. The crowd the CLEFO is looking to capture is younger.. less intense about baseball.. but love to be in a social setting.. Being cooped in an office (cubicle or otherwise), this allows people to be with others..

and that's the good thing that you've pointed out as the reasoning behind the reduction in the number of seats for fans.....

Thoughts?..

 

[Derek]

Nah, you took a single post that mentioned anything about being a fan, where @Derek didn't even come back to defend it or respond, and then used it to paint every single person in the conversation as being of the same mind.

Sure, the second part is hyperbole--but that's not a defense. The post itself is bad discourse because it doesn't address people or arguments on their own merits.

I don't even know what I said to rile anybody up. I certainly didn't call in question anyone's fandom.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I don't even know what I said to rile anybody up. I certainly didn't call in question anyone's fandom.

This was the post I was referring to. The bolding is obviously my own doing:

This isn’t it. The team scored among the best in the league for a couple years (2016-2019) and people weren’t coming out.

Regardless of the offense. If people can’t bring themselves to come out and watch a winning team, then they’re either struggling financially, or they just aren’t baseball fans. You can’t blame the club for the lack of baseball fans in the area.

We just need to accept that this isn’t a baseball town, and just enjoy what we enjoy without worrying about pleasing people who really don’t care.

I think people responded to this without quoting you directly, using it as an example that you're telling people they aren't real fans.

I took it as you used "baseball fans" to mean "people who regularly attend games." I didn't take it as you telling people that if they're at home watching the Indians every night, but don't actually go to games, that they aren't true fans. But, I completely understand how someone reading that wouldn't have the same interpretation that I did.

 

[Derek]

This was the post I was referring to. The bolding is obviously my own doing:


I think people responded to this without quoting you directly, using it as an example that you're telling people they aren't real fans.

I took it as you used "baseball fans" to mean "people who regularly attend games." I didn't take it as you telling people that if they're at home watching the Indians every night, but don't actually go to games, that they aren't true fans. But, I completely understand how someone reading that wouldn't have the same interpretation that I did.

Yeah, that post was meant solely to explain that there's nothing the team can do to (drastically) improve attendance.

Nobody's fandom was being called into question. Settle down, folks.

 

[DJJOE]

Well, I think this conversation has run its course.

I'm not sure how you can post this bolded:



Then chastise someone for actually responding to the words you wrote. My apologies for thinking there was a discussion to be had with you. Clearly there is not.

I had a nice lunch, Emily. Anything happen while I was out? Any inferences drawn, any windmills slain? Yes, I see you're again imagining that I'm ascribing the expectation of a scarcity to the fertile imagination of Mr Dolan. If you had any imagination you might have thought of the guy w/o $17 who, upon hearing ownership would rather tear those empty seats out than price them to fit his wallet , would throw a fit and decide never to darken Dolan's doorway again. The cost of said darkening, btw, is "as low as $36" for tonight's game. Have you figured it out yet?

 

[buzzdog]

Baseball is a pastoral, peaceful sport played in a "park".

But for such a peaceful, pastoral sport, the fans are as testy AF in these discussions.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Baseball is a pastoral, peaceful sport played in a "park".

But for such a peaceful, pastoral sport, the fans are as testy AF in these discussions.

Maybe there's something to Tito's reluctance towards playing rookies... I might be brought around to that line of thinking after this.

Sometimes they're just not ready for the big show.

 

[buzzdog]

Maybe there's something to Tito's reluctance towards playing rookies... I might be brought around to that line of thinking after this.

Sometimes they're just not ready for the big show.

Hopefully in some cases after they take their licks at the highest level they will know what to work on when they get sent back down, and be more ready the next time they get called up. I guess some will, some won't. I'm kind of pulling for Zimmer ATM, hoping maybe a switch turned on for the guy because if not then he's finished. But guys like Gimenez, Chang, O. Miller, and some of the pitchers seem like their time is a ways off, if ever.

Whatever disagreements there may be, things seem to get more personal more quickly in the baseball discussions than they do in other sports being discussed at RCF. Just a different crowd in general, and not the same level of congeniality. Baseball relaxes me compared to other sports unless it's playoff ball so this surprises me a bit.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Hopefully in some cases after they take their licks at the highest level they will know what to work on when they get sent back down, and be more ready the next time they get called up. I guess some will, some won't. I'm kind of pulling for Zimmer ATM, hoping maybe a switch turned on for the guy because if not then he's finished. But guys like Gimenez, Chang, O. Miller, and some of the pitchers seem like their time is a ways off, if ever.

Whatever disagreements there may be, things seem to get more personal more quickly in the baseball discussions than they do in other sports being discussed at RCF. Just a different crowd in general, and not the same level of congeniality. Baseball relaxes me compared to other sports unless it's playoff ball so this surprises me a bit.

I think there is a lot of resentment towards the owner, which drivers a big wedge down the fanbase.

I also think people come in here with the same expectations they have in other sports--the better team usually wins, the best team wins the championship. Where in baseball, every game is closer to a coin flip than in football or basketball, and every team has a chance to win each series.

 

[CDAV45]

Hopefully in some cases after they take their licks at the highest level they will know what to work on when they get sent back down, and be more ready the next time they get called up. I guess some will, some won't. I'm kind of pulling for Zimmer ATM, hoping maybe a switch turned on for the guy because if not then he's finished. But guys like Gimenez, Chang, O. Miller, and some of the pitchers seem like their time is a ways off, if ever.

Whatever disagreements there may be, things seem to get more personal more quickly in the baseball discussions than they do in other sports being discussed at RCF. Just a different crowd in general, and not the same level of congeniality. Baseball relaxes me compared to other sports unless it's playoff ball so this surprises me a bit.

Everyone here would love to see each player perform well and propel this team to a division title and a WS. Unfortunately, as you stated, many will not make it. Some will struggle upon their initial call up, get sent back down, and perform better the next go around. Very few will perform at a high level initially. It's impossible to predict and there is a lot of information to sort through that may or may not prove to be relevant. Therein lies many discrepancies between posters. Occasionally you'll see disagreements, but generally they are healthy ones and those that aren't don't last long........typically. It's the best place to discuss Cleveland Indians' baseball and there is certainly knowledgeable folks posting here. Please don't let a little petty argument deter you from participating.

 

[Huber.]

Switching gears a bit here, but I have a major problem with the shit Tom Hamilton spewed this weekend. My post turns political at the end, so apologies are sent in advance. Friday night he said the Blue Jays have to play in Florida and now Buffalo because the Canadian government butchered the pandemic so badly. He went on to say that only 10% of the the population has been vaccinated. More on that comment in a moment.

Today Hamilton was stating how smart the Indians management was in postponing yesterday's game due to the imminent threat of rain. We understand who signs your pay check Tom, but that is just flat out lying. The game was called at 2:30 about an hour and a half before first pitch. At that time Doplar radar showed absolutely no rain and said the earliest rain could hit was 8 PM. Later, he doubled down about why the Blue Jays have been "forced" to play in the US this season. His source he claimed was a good friend in Canada who says less than 10% of Canadians have been vaccinated, that all the restaurants have been shut down for good, and that all these problems were due to poor pandemic response from the government. To put it mildly, his "good friend" is completely full of shit.

First of all. the reason, and the only reason that the Blue Jays are playing home games in America is because of the butcher job the US did in handling the pandemic. They did not want large groups of Americans spreading the virus in Toronto.

Canada has a population of 37 million. The death count from Covid sits at 25,000 people. By doing the math here, the US has a death rate from Covid more than twice that of Canada per capita. MORE THAN TWICE so tell me again who handled the pandemic better?

After a quick google search, several links show that Canada has actually vaccinated ( double dose) 53% of their population and the US sits at 40%.

There are hundreds of thousands of Indians fans that listen to tribe radio broadcasts. Hamilton should be forced to recant his ridiculous claims. Misinformation remains a real problem in this country. Today, 61% of Republicans still think Trump won the election. How in the eff can that happen? And before people call me a flaming liberal. know that I voted for Nixon, Ford, Reagan twice. Bush 41. Ross Perot and Dole.

From what major countries is Canada accepting non-essential travel? It was my understanding that Canada has pretty much been on lock down since the beginning of this unless you're a Canadian citizen.