The 2021 Cleveland Baseball Organization

[buzzdog]

Occasionally you'll see disagreements, but generally they are healthy ones and those that aren't don't last long........typically. It's the best place to discuss Cleveland Indians' baseball and there is certainly knowledgeable folks posting here. Please don't let a little petty argument deter you from participating.

I don't mean to be overly critical. I've been around RCF for quite awhile and I think I might be a little spoiled by the predominantly good natured level of discussions in the other sports discussions even though they've all had their moments. People realize we're all fans of the same teams and that's what joins us here. I've tried to delve into the baseball discussions a few times over the years and couldn't help but notice immediately how many petty and personal arguments there were compared to the other groups. I am at RCF specifically because it is one of the best discussion groups on the internet when it comes to maintaining civil discussions, and I refuse to go to many sites even for a minute because of all the BS.

Having said that I've seen a nice improvement here, and you're right about there being lots of knowledgeable people here sharing info I would otherwise miss out on so I'm "in". It's not as bad as it was before and hopefully it will continue to improve.

People in general need to focus on what they have in common more than what their differences are, then conduct their disagreements accordingly. It's not that hard and the moderation here has improved by a lot. I'm here for enjoyment so I've developed a low tolerance for the bullshit aspects of internet discussions groups, life is too short.

 

[CDAV45]

I don't mean to be overly critical. I've been around RCF for quite awhile and I think I might be a little spoiled by the predominantly good natured level of discussions in the other sports discussions even though they've all had their moments. People realize we're all fans of the same teams and that's what joins us here. I've tried to delve into the baseball discussions a few times over the years and couldn't help but notice immediately how many petty and personal arguments there were compared to the other groups. I am at RCF specifically because it is one of the best discussion groups on the internet when it comes to maintaining civil discussions, and I refuse to go to many sites even for a minute because of all the BS.

Having said that I've seen a nice improvement here, and you're right about there being lots of knowledgeable people here sharing info I would otherwise miss out on so I'm "in". It's not as bad as it was before and hopefully it will continue to improve.

People in general need to focus on what they have in common more than what their differences are, then conduct their disagreements accordingly. It's not that hard and the moderation here has improved by a lot. I'm here for enjoyment so I've developed a low tolerance for the bullshit aspects of internet discussions groups, life is too short.

Amen to that and Q-Tip does a good job keeping things "reigned in". The treatment is fair and impartial. The problem with discussions on forums is that the "tone" can be misunderstood easily. I know I've been misunderstood and have misunderstood others, but I don't hold grudges and things get resolved quickly...........usually. Anyway, glad to see you visit us. The more the merrier so don't be a stranger and I hope that our behavior doesn't keep you from coming back frequently.

 

[CATS44]

Imagine all of us sitting in a bar and watching the Tribe on TV.

The same conversations, the same comments, the same disagreements...

But they don't seem nearly as nasty as they do in type. In fact, in person, they are usually meant more as banter between Tribe fans than anything personal.

 

[B Mac]

As someone who lives in North Canton, I'm super confused why it's being said we can't make it to a game? If you get off work at 5:00 and the game starts at 7:05, that's 2 hours to get inside the gates.

On the absolute WORST day it takes a little over an hour to get to Cleveland, but lets say there is some major, super uncommon, slow down that takes another 15 minutes. Doesnt that still put you in Cleveland by 6:15?

I usually have enough time to get to Cleveland, park, lose at the JACK, slug some beers, and still get to my seat before the first pitch.

Am I missing something here?

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Imagine all of us sitting in a bar and watching the Tribe on TV.

The same conversations, the same comments, the same disagreements...

But they don't seem nearly as nasty as they do in type. In fact, in person, they are usually meant more as banter between Tribe fans than anything personal.

I don't understand why people are turned off by conflict.

The best ideas--the best understanding, the best analysis--is forged and tested. We should disagree and hash out where we differ--that's how we get to an understanding. Conflict is good, just stick to the arguments, rather than the person.

The people who see disagreement and say "See! This is why I don't post!" just aren't ever going to resonate with me.

 

[DCTribefan]

I don't understand why people are turned off by conflict.

The best ideas--the best understanding, the best analysis--is forged and tested. We should disagree and hash out where we differ--that's how we get to an understanding. Conflict is good, just stick to the arguments, rather than the person.

The people who see disagreement and say "See! This is why I don't post!" just aren't ever going to resonate with me.

No offense intended but your avatar will never resonate with me.

 

[buzzdog]

I don't understand why people are turned off by conflict.

The best ideas--the best understanding, the best analysis--is forged and tested. We should disagree and hash out where we differ--that's how we get to an understanding. Conflict is good, just stick to the arguments, rather than the person.

The people who see disagreement and say "See! This is why I don't post!" just aren't ever going to resonate with me.

Disagreement is fine. But you know as well as I do what a cesspool internet discussion groups can become, and it's a pretty slippery slope. If I come looking for different opinions and POVs and info, and end up having to slog/scroll through a bunch of petty, thin skinned personal bickering matches then I'll just leave rather than waste my time, which I put a high value on.

But disagreements, arguments, even heated ones, are great as long as people stick to facts and evidence to form opinions and show some underlying respect remembering we're all fans of the sport and team. Without some friction the place would be dull. There's a lane to be respected at RCF and from what I'm seeing recently this Tribe discussion has gotten better that what drove me away in the past.

 

[buzzdog]

No offense intended but your avatar will never resonate with me.

Yeah, especially with the green button looking like a censored version of 'Lil Kev.

 

[bronko]

Switching gears a bit here, but I have a major problem with the shit Tom Hamilton spewed this weekend. My post turns political at the end, so apologies are sent in advance. Friday night he said the Blue Jays have to play in Florida and now Buffalo because the Canadian government butchered the pandemic so badly. He went on to say that only 10% of the the population has been vaccinated. More on that comment in a moment.

Today Hamilton was stating how smart the Indians management was in postponing yesterday's game due to the imminent threat of rain. We understand who signs your pay check Tom, but that is just flat out lying. The game was called at 2:30 about an hour and a half before first pitch. At that time Doplar radar showed absolutely no rain and said the earliest rain could hit was 8 PM. Later, he doubled down about why the Blue Jays have been "forced" to play in the US this season. His source he claimed was a good friend in Canada who says less than 10% of Canadians have been vaccinated, that all the restaurants have been shut down for good, and that all these problems were due to poor pandemic response from the government. To put it mildly, his "good friend" is completely full of shit.

First of all. the reason, and the only reason that the Blue Jays are playing home games in America is because of the butcher job the US did in handling the pandemic. They did not want large groups of Americans spreading the virus in Toronto.

Canada has a population of 37 million. The death count from Covid sits at 25,000 people. By doing the math here, the US has a death rate from Covid more than twice that of Canada per capita. MORE THAN TWICE so tell me again who handled the pandemic better?

After a quick google search, several links show that Canada has actually vaccinated ( double dose) 53% of their population and the US sits at 40%.

There are hundreds of thousands of Indians fans that listen to tribe radio broadcasts. Hamilton should be forced to recant his ridiculous claims. Misinformation remains a real problem in this country. Today, 61% of Republicans still think Trump won the election. How in the eff can that happen? And before people call me a flaming liberal. know that I voted for Nixon, Ford, Reagan twice. Bush 41. Ross Perot and Dole.

Today's game called 100 minutes before first pitch, again before any rain. Is this a new trend? I drove into town, tailgated a couple brews and went home. Weather forecast looked playable. And, I agree, Hammy, like Manning seems lost.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

No offense intended but your avatar will never resonate with me.

I assume you left out the word "not."

As @KevinLoveFan can attest, this avatar will never not resonate with you

Disagreement is fine. But you know as well as I do what a cesspool internet discussion groups can become, and it's a pretty slippery slope. If I come looking for different opinions and POVs and info, and end up having to slog/scroll through a bunch of petty, thin skinned personal bickering matches then I'll just leave rather than waste my time, which I put a high value on.

But disagreements, arguments, even heated ones, are great as long as people stick to facts and evidence to form opinions and show some underlying respect remembering we're all fans of the sport and team. Without some friction the place would be dull. There's a lane to be respected at RCF and from what I'm seeing recently this Tribe discussion has gotten better that what drove me away in the past.

I don't really give credence to slippery slopes and arguments that rely on hypothetical fears. I prefer when people pick out specifics. That allows others to understand the point instead of just vaguely referring to "stuff" that makes people guess at what someone means.

 

[NorthCoastBias]

Positive development here.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

From a Jason Lloyd column in The Athletic:

The Indians have a deep history now of trading key players before they get to free agency, determining the 5-6 year wait for a compensatory pick to develop isn’t very efficient. By slowly and methodically dismantling body parts — an arm here, a leg there, a Cy Young winner this winter and a shortstop next spring — rather than cutting the heart out in one massive offseason teardown, the Indians can keep the blood flowing and the organization breathing.

No Detroit or Baltimore-style full-scale rebuild is coming to Cleveland anytime soon. An already withering fan base may never return if the Indians became irrelevant for 3-5 years. Instead, they received 17 players in exchange for Kluber, Bauer, Clevinger, Lindor and Carrasco. Nine of them have already played in Cleveland this year (Franmil Reyes, Emmanuel Clase, Cal Quantrill, Austin Hedges, Owen Miller, Josh Naylor, Amed Rosario, Andres Gimenez and Logan Allen). Gabriel Arias and Isaiah Greene (and Miller) began the year ranked in Keith Law’s top 20 Indians prospects. Only two players from the deals, Yasiel Puig and Delino DeShields, are no longer with the organization.

Those trades have reshaped a farm system that now ranks second in baseball behind only the Rays, according to Law. Since 2015, eight of their last nine first-round draft selections were high school players, a clear sign in drafting for upside and playing the long game. In other words, the assembly line is still rolling and some of the best talent hasn’t even reached Class AAA yet. The Indians’ streak of eight consecutive seasons above .500 doesn’t seem in danger of ending anytime soon.

That doesn’t mean they’ve got it all figured out. For all of the secret sauce the Indians slather on their pitchers, they’re still well behind in developing hitters. They entered Thursday’s off day 28th in batting, 29th in on-base percentage, 21st in slugging and 24th in OPS.

Hopefully that last part will start changing soon, but at least they traded for Reyes, Naylor, and Amed Rosario while signing Eddie, Harold, and Cesar.

 

[33Y0]

 

[Mott the Hoople]

From a Jason Lloyd column in The Athletic:

The Indians have a deep history now of trading key players before they get to free agency, determining the 5-6 year wait for a compensatory pick to develop isn’t very efficient. By slowly and methodically dismantling body parts — an arm here, a leg there, a Cy Young winner this winter and a shortstop next spring — rather than cutting the heart out in one massive offseason teardown, the Indians can keep the blood flowing and the organization breathing.

No Detroit or Baltimore-style full-scale rebuild is coming to Cleveland anytime soon. An already withering fan base may never return if the Indians became irrelevant for 3-5 years. Instead, they received 17 players in exchange for Kluber, Bauer, Clevinger, Lindor and Carrasco. Nine of them have already played in Cleveland this year (Franmil Reyes, Emmanuel Clase, Cal Quantrill, Austin Hedges, Owen Miller, Josh Naylor, Amed Rosario, Andres Gimenez and Logan Allen). Gabriel Arias and Isaiah Greene (and Miller) began the year ranked in Keith Law’s top 20 Indians prospects. Only two players from the deals, Yasiel Puig and Delino DeShields, are no longer with the organization.

Those trades have reshaped a farm system that now ranks second in baseball behind only the Rays, according to Law. Since 2015, eight of their last nine first-round draft selections were high school players, a clear sign in drafting for upside and playing the long game. In other words, the assembly line is still rolling and some of the best talent hasn’t even reached Class AAA yet. The Indians’ streak of eight consecutive seasons above .500 doesn’t seem in danger of ending anytime soon.

That doesn’t mean they’ve got it all figured out. For all of the secret sauce the Indians slather on their pitchers, they’re still well behind in developing hitters. They entered Thursday’s off day 28th in batting, 29th in on-base percentage, 21st in slugging and 24th in OPS.

Hopefully that last part will start changing soon, but at least they traded for Reyes, Naylor, and Amed Rosario while signing Eddie, Harold, and Cesar.

In 1989 the Indians made one of those trades. Joe Carter was far and away the most talented player on the team. He was a 30-30 guy, and an all-star of that era. But the Indians bit the bullet and traded him to San Diego for 2 prospects and a OF Chris James.
The two prospects were Carlos Baerga and Sandy Alomar Jr. They were pivotal in turning the franchise around and became iconic Indian team members.
Did the Indians get the best years of Joe Carter? He went on to win the World Series with the Jays. But I'd make that deal again.

 

[Gson]

In 1989 the Indians made one of those trades. Joe Carter was far and away the most talented player on the team. He was a 30-30 guy, and an all-star of that era. But the Indians bit the bullet and traded him to San Diego for 2 prospects and a OF Chris James.
The two prospects were Carlos Baerga and Sandy Alomar Jr. They were pivotal in turning the franchise around and became iconic Indian team members.
Did the Indians get the best years of Joe Carter? He went on to win the World Series with the Jays. But I'd make that deal again.

This is the pattern the Indians have followed.. sign their stars to as many years as possible including a free agent year or two.. then move them before the real high salary/long contract kicks in.. The best value returned for a great player is two great players.. or threee.. I have yet to see four..

But.. who knows.. trades are done for more than financial reasons..

There's a suggested six for three player deal listed at the BTV site.. Only Bleday is a known from the deal coming back to the Indians.. but the deal, as presented could be a MONSTER.. imho..

.. note: this isn't an obsession.. just business as usual..