The 2021 Cleveland Baseball Organization

[Mott the Hoople]

This is the pattern the Indians have followed.. sign their stars to as many years as possible including a free agent year or two.. then move them before the real high salary/long contract kicks in.. The best value returned for a great player is two great players.. or threee.. I have yet to see four..

What? Lee Stevens wasn't great? With Sizemore, Lee, and Phillips?

 

[CDAV45]

In 1989 the Indians made one of those trades. Joe Carter was far and away the most talented player on the team. He was a 30-30 guy, and an all-star of that era. But the Indians bit the bullet and traded him to San Diego for 2 prospects and a OF Chris James.
The two prospects were Carlos Baerga and Sandy Alomar Jr. They were pivotal in turning the franchise around and became iconic Indian team members.
Did the Indians get the best years of Joe Carter? He went on to win the World Series with the Jays. But I'd make that deal again.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting here that they should consider trading JRam instead of extending him? My thoughts are this. If they can afford to extend JRam and keep a good team around him then I'm all for extending him. However, if extending JRam, and possibly Bieber, hamstring this club and keep it from filling any other needs then I'm for not extending him and possibly dealing him. This isn't a desire to trade JRam, but a desire to field a team capable of winning.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting here that they should consider trading JRam instead of extending him? My thoughts are this. If they can afford to extend JRam and keep a good team around him then I'm all for extending him. However, if extending JRam, and possibly Bieber, hamstring this club and keep it from filling any other needs then I'm for not extending him and possibly dealing him. This isn't a desire to trade JRam, but a desire to field a team capable of winning.

Yes imo they should consider trading JRam. FOR THE RIGHT DEAL. The Indians have never been set up to have a roster with 1 or 2 high priced players.
They share the model of the Tampa Bay Rays. - and I admire them for that. There's nothing wrong with that. In market size Tampa is 12, Cleveland is 19. Both rank very low in MLB attendance. Both teams have very good player development systems.
TB is not known for extending many players, or playing in the FA market. They make trades and go next man up.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

ZIPS has the Indians finishing the season at 81-81, tied for second with the Royals. This projection was run yesterday. It probably had something to do with having a run differential of -6 one-third of the way into the season despite playing the easiest part of the schedule, not to mention the injuries to Plesac and Reyes.

 

[sportscoach]

Yes imo they should consider trading JRam. FOR THE RIGHT DEAL. The Indians have never been set up to have a roster with 1 or 2 high priced players.
They share the model of the Tampa Bay Rays. - and I admire them for that. There's nothing wrong with that. In market size Tampa is 12, Cleveland is 19. Both rank very low in MLB attendance. Both teams have very good player development systems.
TB is not known for extending many players, or playing in the FA market. They make trades and go next man up.

Since 17 though, they have always had a couple high priced players if you look at the numbers... The Indians FO knows they need to have a face of the franchise in a sense. So keeping a couple guys like Bieber and JRam even at a higher rate is actually a pretty smart move at the end of the day. Though that being said after 32 area (depending on the player) most usually start to decrease in production so they normally won't have anyone paid above a certain price range unless absolutely necessary for a playoff run (aka EE move in 17 is the exception to the rule, but they aren't going to spend that type of money in free agency otherwise)

From a baseball perspective, they have done a great job extending and signing guys that it is very hard to doubt the FOs intentions and actions that they make. Tampa actually does extensions as well, like the Indians do, if they have a franchise type of player, but often times cause of the way they build the farm, the next guy up is just as good as the guy who is at the pros, so they move guys when the budget is tight to fill in other holes/have the backup to the guy replacing the traded guy ready.

 

[CDAV45]

ZIPS has the Indians finishing the season at 81-81, tied for second with the Royals. This projection was run yesterday. It probably had something to do with having a run differential of -6 one-third of the way into the season despite playing the easiest part of the schedule, not to mention the injuries to Plesac and Reyes.

We'll finish behind the Royals if we don't start hitting the ball. If we start hitting the ball we might just give Chicago a run for their money. Why is improving this team less of a priority than improving the team 3 yrs down the road? Why is extending JRam and Bieber, who can't become FA's until 2024 and 2025 respectively a concern at this moment? It's only June 4th so there is certainly time to improve this club, and maybe that is their intention.

 

[sportscoach]

We'll finish behind the Royals if we don't start hitting the ball. If we start hitting the ball we might just give Chicago a run for their money. Why is improving this team less of a priority than improving the team 3 yrs down the road? Why is extending JRam and Bieber, who can't become FA's until 2024 and 2025 respectively a concern at this moment? It's only June 4th so there is certainly time to improve this club, and maybe that is their intention.

21 might be a year we let the young guys play and see what happens, but we both agree we should get another veteran hitter in Cleveland with maybe another veteran SP for the stretch run. Now do we go for a Marte/Marquez mixed with a Gray/Cron or just two rentals, it's hard to know now... But I think we both don't wanna stay put...

 

[CDAV45]

21 might be a year we let the young guys play and see what happens, but we both agree we should get another veteran hitter in Cleveland with maybe another veteran SP for the stretch run. Now do we go for a Marte/Marquez mixed with a Gray/Cron or just two rentals, it's hard to know now... But I think we both don't wanna stay put...

I would say that acquiring Marte or Marquez would require more than Chernoff would be willing to give. Acquiring either of them may make it more difficult to extend JRam and/or Bieber as well. Gray and Cron would be great, but waiting until the deadline will only drive up their cost as other teams will probably be bidding on them as well.

I think it's jus as likely they deal Eddie and Hernandez than make any acquisitions to help this season.

 

[CDAV45]

I've gotta say that Plesac's injury has shined a light on the pitching depth this organization has. Mejia will eventually hit a bump in the road, but damned if he doesn't look good. Quantrill is stepping up an pitching real well too. Hentges has shown moments, but needs polish. I think he needs to use his slider more and develop his change up further.

Plesac may have "dumbassed" his way out of this organization.

 

[sportscoach]

I would say that acquiring Marte or Marquez would require more than Chernoff would be willing to give. Acquiring either of them may make it more difficult to extend JRam and/or Bieber as well. Gray and Cron would be great, but waiting until the deadline will only drive up their cost as other teams will probably be bidding on them as well.

I think it's jus as likely they deal Eddie and Hernandez than make any acquisitions to help this season.

Personally I don't think moving Eddie and Hernandez is the right move, since I want to show the players the FO wants to win. So even if it's just a couple veteran rentals, it would show the FO plans on winning/making the moves when needed.

Marquez/Marte move wouldn't help the budget, but the FO wouldn't make the move if it effected the chance of extending who we have. Remember both guys have a fairly team friendly contract on paper for their playing level so it would be a move within the realm of possibility money wise.. Now when it comes to prospects being moved... I can see them not wanting to pay the prices that way, but sometimes you gotta gamble and I think they will do some type of gambling in 22/23 even after they extend guys. Dolan wants to win as much as we do it feels like, so I think he will okay a Miller trade again/EE signing in due time.

 

[CDAV45]

Personally I don't think moving Eddie and Hernandez is the right move, since I want to show the players the FO wants to win. So even if it's just a couple veteran rentals, it would show the FO plans on winning/making the moves when needed.

Marquez/Marte move wouldn't help the budget, but the FO wouldn't make the move if it effected the chance of extending who we have. Remember both guys have a fairly team friendly contract on paper for their playing level so it would be a move within the realm of possibility money wise.. Now when it comes to prospects being moved... I can see them not wanting to pay the prices that way, but sometimes you gotta gamble and I think they will do some type of gambling in 22/23 even after they extend guys. Dolan wants to win as much as we do it feels like, so I think he will okay a Miller trade again/EE signing in due time.

I'm not advocating that trading Eddie and/or Cesar is the right move, and if they want to win then it's fairly obvious what is needed so why wait. Waiting until the deadline may be too late.

Gray and Cron are exactly what this team needs right now and their cost in dollars is whatever is left on Gray's $8M and Cron's $1M. There is no further commitment than this season so it wouldn't interfere with extensions. From this fan's point of view, getting them ASAP would be awe inspiring. If by some chance they did get those 2 and it didn't work out, I would still look back positively on the decision.

I'm not trying to spend someone else's money here. I'm just trying to rationalize how we have the monetary wherewithal to extend JRam and Bieber and can't afford $6M or so for the remainder of this season. There may be a perfectly logical explanation and I just don't know it.

 

[sportscoach]

I'm not advocating that trading Eddie and/or Cesar is the right move, and if they want to win then it's fairly obvious what is needed so why wait. Waiting until the deadline may be too late.

Gray and Cron are exactly what this team needs right now and their cost in dollars is whatever is left on Gray's $8M and Cron's $1M. There is no further commitment than this season so it wouldn't interfere with extensions. From this fan's point of view, getting them ASAP would be awe inspiring. If by some chance they did get those 2 and it didn't work out, I would still look back positively on the decision.

I'm not trying to spend someone else's money here. I'm just trying to rationalize how we have the monetary wherewithal to extend JRam and Bieber and can't afford $6M or so for the remainder of this season. There may be a perfectly logical explanation and I just don't know it.

I agree getting a veteran bat and veteran SP is something we should do... Haniger over Cron though in my mind since Haniger has another year of control if I don't non-tender him/trade him next season... I don't personally like Gray, his splits scare me, but the idea is right...I just don't trust a pitcher who is better at Coors than away from Coors...

 

[CDAV45]

I agree getting a veteran bat and veteran SP is something we should do... Haniger over Cron though in my mind since Haniger has another year of control if I don't non-tender him/trade him next season... I don't personally like Gray, his splits scare me, but the idea is right...I just don't trust a pitcher who is better at Coors than away from Coors...

You have to know that there is no advantage to pitching in Coors Field and that those splits don't tell the true story. Gray is no Shane Bieber, but we don't need him to be either. He'd be a damn good addition to a staff currently limited on SP. I think that would allow Quantrill and Mejia to piggyback thus limiting their IP and protecting them from injury/fatigue.

 

[sportscoach]

You have to know that there is no advantage to pitching in Coors Field and that those splits don't tell the true story. Gray is no Shane Bieber, but we don't need him to be either. He'd be a damn good addition to a staff currently limited on SP. I think that would allow Quantrill and Mejia to piggyback thus limiting their IP and protecting them from injury/fatigue.

That's why his splits scare me... Marquez is a 3 something ERA on the road and 5 something at Coors .. it's so weird that a pitcher has better numbers at Coors field... It's an anomaly so I cannot predict what it means/why it's happening. I am not saying I would have any issues if we actually got him, he just isn't my first choice...

 

[CDAV45]

That's why his splits scare me... Marquez is a 3 something ERA on the road and 5 something at Coors .. it's so weird that a pitcher has better numbers at Coors field... It's an anomaly so I cannot predict what it means/why it's happening. I am not saying I would have any issues if we actually got him, he just isn't my first choice...

What other pitcher with his performance can be had on the last year of their contract at such a reasonable price?