Trading Collin Sexton or Darius Garland

[RchfldCavRaised]

I am not a Garland hater but your takes on Sexton are pretty terrible imo.
Saying someone can't do something they are not doing because it's someone else that has that job on this bad team
is pretty obviously wrong.
I am guessing you are one of those advocating for removing good scorers in the name of finding more role players that help make Garland shine up his assist rate.
I think it was clear Sexton got his team involved when they asked him to pretty easily when he had a better assist rate without Garland on the floor than Garland did all season and Sexton was still being pushed to score. Hell he wasnt even the pg when he was doing it.
I NEVER SAID SEXTON NEEDED A BETTER PG TO GET HIM BETTER LOOKS I SAID HE NEEDS A BETTER PG MEANING ONE THAT CAN SHOOT AND SCORE AT THE BASKET TO TAKE THE PRESSURE OFF SEXTON BEING DOUBLE TEAMED WHILE ALSO RUNNING PLAYS AND GETTING THINGS IN ORDER.

 

[Ozone]

Garland is not the player so many Cavs fans seem to pretend that he is. He is the leader of a sub 500 team in the middle of a rebuild and there is no proof whatsoever he will ever be that leader on a winning team. They rode him for 2 seasons and going into training camp he was already in jeopardy of losing his starting job if he had not shown up and played as well as he did. The amount of concern so many have with the team being held back by Sexton scoring is short sighted imo. If they believed Sexton was the problem he would not have bee a starter all season either Enjoy your freefall into oblivion

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Garland is not the player so many Cavs fans seem to pretend that he is. He is the leader of a sub 500 team in the middle of a rebuild and there is no proof whatsoever he will ever be that leader on a winning team. They rode him for 2 seasons and going into training camp he was already in jeopardy of losing his starting job if he had not shown up and played as well as he did. The amount of concern so many have with the team being held back by Sexton scoring is short sighted imo. If they believed Sexton was the problem he would not have bee a starter all season either Enjoy your freefall into oblivion

YOu are going to die on this Garland hill because you had some pre-existing distaste for him even leading up to the draft. You thought the Cavs drafted him just to trade him right after.

I'm willing to wager, if you are that Garland is going to take another big step next season that will put whatever question mark and ideas you have on him to rest. Objectively.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

Garland is not the player so many Cavs fans seem to pretend that he is. He is the leader of a sub 500 team in the middle of a rebuild and there is no proof whatsoever he will ever be that leader on a winning team. They rode him for 2 seasons and going into training camp he was already in jeopardy of losing his starting job if he had not shown up and played as well as he did. The amount of concern so many have with the team being held back by Sexton scoring is short sighted imo. If they believed Sexton was the problem he would not have bee a starter all season either Enjoy your freefall into oblivion

I'm not countering your take. You're entitled to it and I love sports fan passion, so I don't want to discourage yours. But man... I had to work very hard to decipher your post. I was doing some morning moderation/editing while drinking my coffee and your lack of punctuation and insistence on CAPS SHOUTING hurts to read.

Please take a moment to proofread your posts before replying. Read it back to yourself before pressing send.

 

[Ozone]

I'm not countering your take. You're entitled to it and I love sports fan passion, so I don't want to discourage yours. But man... I had to work very hard to decipher your post. I was doing some morning moderation/editing while drinking my coffee and your lack of punctuation and insistence on CAPS SHOUTING hurts to read.

Please take a moment to proofread your posts before replying. Read it back to yourself before pressing send.

sorry about those caps I don't normally get mad but the poster completely twisted my point suggesting Sexton needs a better pg to facilitate Sextons scoring when in reality the truth is plain that he needs a running a mate that scores like he does and Suggs is that guy.
I was simply stating the fact that anyone trying to pretend Garland is more than he is and Sexton is less than he but complaining Sexton cant run a team when they are not even having him do that at all while using the argument to justify keeping Garland or moving Sexton is pissing in the wind. but it's just an opinion and we all have them lol
I was not educated at all lol i just threw shot at the teachers and slept all day

 

[Willard513]

sorry about those caps I don't normally get mad but the poster completely twisted my point suggesting Sexton needs a better pg to facilitate Sextons scoring when in reality the truth is plain that he needs a running a mate that scores like he does and Suggs is that guy.
I was simply stating the fact that anyone trying to pretend Garland is more than he is and Sexton is less than he but complaining Sexton cant run a team when they are not even having him do that at all while using the argument to justify keeping Garland or moving Sexton is pissing in the wind. but it's just an opinion and we all have them lol
I was not educated at all lol i just threw shot at the teachers and slept all day

I didn’t twist your point, you stated sexton needs a running mate that can lead the offense, score as much as him, and run the offense.

If sexton needs all of this to be successful then he is just a 6th man, because 2nd best players on playoff teams don’t need that much help just to be .500 in the nba. And you didn’t respond to my point that sexton isn’t a high IQ passer, or a bad defender. They don’t have him run the offense because HE ISNT GOOD AT IT. If he was, they would have him run the 2nd unit when he comes back in instead of rolling the corpse of Delly or Yogi Ferrell out there next to him.

Finally, go back and read my original post, the argument is that you can’t just draft Suggs and assume garland is the one to go. My point was that no one of the young core currently is good enough to jusitfy not taking the best player and assuming that it’s garland is asinine.

We clearly see this differently so there is no point in wasting everyone’s time like @RchfldCavRaised mentioned and allow more discourse. Feel free to pm me if you wish and we can continue this discussion there. I’m open to other opinions like he mentioned above but I don’t need to clutter the thread.

 

[1B4IGO]

Honestly I would trade both Garland and Sexton. Neither seem to be leaders but if I had to choose I’m in the Garland camp, barely.

 

[Cavatt]

Which player should we trade? The best player on the team or the 2nd best?

 

[Ozone]

I didn’t twist your point, you stated sexton needs a running mate that can lead the offense, score as much as him, and run the offense.

If sexton needs all of this to be successful then he is just a 6th man, because 2nd best players on playoff teams don’t need that much help just to be .500 in the nba. And you didn’t respond to my point that sexton isn’t a high IQ passer, or a bad defender. They don’t have him run the offense because HE ISNT GOOD AT IT. If he was, they would have him run the 2nd unit when he comes back in instead of rolling the corpse of Delly or Yogi Ferrell out there next to him.

Finally, go back and read my original post, the argument is that you can’t just draft Suggs and assume garland is the one to go. My point was that no one of the young core currently is good enough to jusitfy not taking the best player and assuming that it’s garland is asinine.

We clearly see this differently so there is no point in wasting everyone’s time like @RchfldCavRaised mentioned and allow more discourse. Feel free to pm me if you wish and we can continue this discussion there. I’m open to other opinions like he mentioned above but I don’t need to clutter the thread.

YES actually you are doing it again right there. That is not what I am suggesting at all. What I am saying is Garland as good as he is getting the bigs involved and orchestrating the slow offense Bickerstaff is running Garland has not shown enough as a shooter or scorer so Sexton therefore is required by having to share the court with him to score more than he should have to and by that fact we see people like complaining he is a black hole on offense stopping the flow etc.
Sexton does not need to be scrutinized for his usage when it is needed but some like you choose to see it as if that is all he can do and so I say this: https://genius.com/Local-h-bound-for-the-floor-lyrics

 

[adam81king]

YES actually you are doing it again right there. That is not what I am suggesting at all. What I am saying is Garland as good as he is getting the bigs involved and orchestrating the slow offense Bickerstaff is running Garland has not shown enough as a shooter or scorer so Sexton therefore is required by having to share the court with him to score more than he should have to and by that fact we see people like complaining he is a black hole on offense stopping the flow etc.
Sexton does not need to be scrutinized for his usage when it is needed but some like you choose to see it as if that is all he can do and so I say this: https://genius.com/Local-h-bound-for-the-floor-lyrics

So you're saying that the numbers Sexton puts up are only because no one else on the team can, and that those numbers would be less than they are if his running mate was better than Garland? Those same numbers that folks laud as similar to Beal, Booker, Mitchell, etc?

 

[adam81king]

I have yet to see anyone actually complain about the raw numbers that Sexton puts up, but maybe I missed that? What I do see, and contribute to, is folks complaining about *how* he gets those numbers and what it means for the other guys on the team.

There have been links shared that point to everyone else on the team performing more effectively and efficiently when Garland is on the floor, with the opposite being true for Sexton. I have not looked at or analyzed those numbers myself, so im assuming they're legit and in good faith. Regardless of the stats you put up, if your teammates are suffering when you're on the court, you're not a net positive in a team sport. Conversely, if you're stats aren't stellar, but you improve the play of everyone else, you're the kind of guy folks wanna play with. In my years of loving basketball, that's what we call a "floor general."

I'm not advocating shipping out Sexton for nothing, but I am advocating letting him (who I call a rabid chihuahua, or having the basketball IQ of Forest Gump) be the primary guy on the second unit. I think the Cavaliers have 3 guys that can handle the back court, and adding a DJ Augustin-like veteran PG to fill out the roster. For me, I'm starting Garland (PG) and Okoro (SG) next season (assuming we don't get Green, Suggs or another guard). I'm having Sexton come off the bench as a super sub scoring guard like Lou Williams, Jamal Crawford, Jordan Clarkson, JR Smith or even Manu Ginobili. There are 96 minutes available at guard, give them each 30-32mpg and see what happens.

I'm hoping to draft a forward to fill the holes there.

 

[Ozone]

what proof does the average Garland fan have of Sexton not being just as high an iq player at this time?
Don't say it's because Bickerstaff has him as the best option on the team to score, and that's why he does not make his team better, even though that is exactly why you think he has a low iq, despite consistently being the most productive offensive player on the roster as the first option.
If we could just get better offensive production out of the point guard or someone else consistently, where Sexton does not need to be so focused on scoring, and can do more within a moving offense with useful shooters and scorers available, then you would see the IQ is there already. You also would see Garland not have to rely so much on the center to get easy baskets to make any sort of impact on this roster at all, if he himself was better at shooting the basketball, or if he had better cutters and threats around him, to take some of the attention off the both of them.
Rebuilding is never easy but this continual need to take sides as too which combo guard is the one to keep, because you cant keep both is really exhausting. One is clearly able to score at will even when doubled, but rarely ever gets into a good passing rhythm as a first option, and the other is capable of throwing good timely passes, but does not have enough of an offensive game outside that, to keep a defender attached.

 

[Cavatt]

When Sexton is hurt and Garland plays, the offense runs smoother sometimes, but there is always a glaring hole where a confident scorer should be. I get the idea that Sexton doesn't make his teammates much better, but you can't just take him off the team.

I really think this has more to do with not having a developed offense and the lack of continuity. Garland is better at making something out of nothing, but when the defense clamps down he has a harder time just going and getting it.

If you told me a team in the playoffs in 2 year neutralized Garland for 5 games due to scheme, I would view that as a possibility. If you said the same about Sexton I would be skeptical.

It's like Curry vs Kyrie. I'd rather have Curry to raise the floor up, but if there are only 9 sec and I need a bucket, I have more confidence Kyrie can get a good shot off.

They are both getting better. I think trading either is going to be too soon and getting less than you could once this team is competing. I think someone needs to outplay one of them before taking their spot. Like if we draft Green and he just has more chemistry than Sexton with everyone, by all means. I just think his ability to play with others has improved enough that it is foolish to cut bat so soon.

Sending Sexton to the bench will be for only several months because you will have to trade him at the deadline.

 

[Sebastian]

We can do very well to never see "Stan" in these threads again.

 

[Willard513]

When Sexton is hurt and Garland plays, the offense runs smoother sometimes, but there is always a glaring hole where a confident scorer should be. I get the idea that Sexton doesn't make his teammates much better, but you can't just take him off the team.

I really think this has more to do with not having a developed offense and the lack of continuity. Garland is better at making something out of nothing, but when the defense clamps down he has a harder time just going and getting it.

If you told me a team in the playoffs in 2 year neutralized Garland for 5 games due to scheme, I would view that as a possibility. If you said the same about Sexton I would be skeptical.

It's like Curry vs Kyrie. I'd rather have Curry to raise the floor up, but if there are only 9 sec and I need a bucket, I have more confidence Kyrie can get a good shot off.

They are both getting better. I think trading either is going to be too soon and getting less than you could once this team is competing. I think someone needs to outplay one of them before taking their spot. Like if we draft Green and he just has more chemistry than Sexton with everyone, by all means. I just think his ability to play with others has improved enough that it is foolish to

I actually strongly agree with the bolded, but I think it proves my point more. If we were in the playoffs, teams would let Collin go for 40 and try and take garland out of the game because we would have 0 ball movement and play to their advantage. I also disagree with the idea of “going and getting it”. Thats not always just scoring, and can be a multitude of things from running a PnR to iso, both of which garland is better at in terms of getting the defense out of position and making a play.

It’s just my opinion but I think teams would be neutralizing sextons impact by letting him go for 40 and hunkering down on everyone else. That’s actually hurting the cavs more in a playoff game than it would help. Taking garland out of the game would be more advantageous to the opposing team then letting Collin go for 40 in a clunky offense.

I again want to make clear, I don’t think they need to trade Collin or Darius now, but by august I imagine we will know which way they are leaning in relation to the future based on roster construction and potential sexton extension/draft pick choice.