Love/Wiggins Trade Revisited

[mrbeaks]

Wiggins has been super-motivated to improve his game since he got traded basically at LeBron's request. Perhaps he would've put in the same amount of work had he played alongside LeBron in Cleveland. Or maybe LeBron would've been the same pouting, coach-sabotaging jerk we've seen all season, and Wiggins would've struggled to find his way amidst a power struggle in a high-pressure situation.

I was for the trade at the time because the mandate was to win now, and I thought Love was the perfect stretch four for Blatt's system. But nothing's gone according to plan for a variety of reasons, and, yeah, it kinda sucks watching Wiggins flourish in Minnesota. The biggest bummer for me: even if he would've sucked offensively, his defense would've earned him minutes. At worst, he would've been a healthy MKG. The Cavs could use such a player right now in the worst way.

 

[wuck]

I'm not going to split off a 3rd thread dedicated to arguments for and against whether to debate the Love/Wiggins trade....

Have fun in this one.

 

[castor777]

My only problem with revisiting this trade is you're assuming the stats and production that Wiggins is garnering with the Wolves would be the same here. It wouldn't be - very far from it. On a team like the Wolves, among the worst in the league, they are looking at him to produce at all costs. There's very little hope they'll win the majority of the games they play, so he's given the green light on offense and is improving his confidence and game every night. I flat out refuse to believe he'd be getting anywhere near the same independence here, especially as a 3rd or 4th option on the offense. It'd be a much different situation for him - and with him not getting the same amount of looks and shot attempts each game as he is in Minnesota, it's hard to any knowledge of what his game would look like here.

I'm not trying to suggest Wiggins would be a big bust if he had stayed in Cleveland. I just think it'd take him much longer to reach the point of where he is now. And if we were to lose the same amount of games as we have, and he'd get the extra media attention that we're not living up to expectations, it's hard to say what that could do for a rookies frame of mind (ask Anthony Bennett). He doesn't have to worry about any of that in Minnesota, and I think he's benefitting greatly from that.

 

[MirORich]

MirORich, I totally disagree with this stance.

Trading Wiggins for Love is not such a no-brainer move as to be above debate or reproach.

There's no need to stifle conversation.

I'm making no comment in whether it's a good trade or bad trade. From a value perspective. From a historic perspective. From a stats perspective.

I didn't mean to come off so heavy handed or suggest that people don't have plenty of good ideas and arguments about many facets of the trade.

I just believe it's way way too early to judge it or grade it beyond speculative and hypothetical purposes.

Apologies for the tone and I will see my way out of the thread.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Look, I don't want to knock Love, but let's not beat around the bush about his deficiencies.

I think everybody will acknowledge his deficiencies, they might be worse than we expected. This was a package deal, so although you and I might not have cared for the trade; LeBron only agreed to come back to Cleveland because we could get Love.

Should we have just told LeBron "it's going to be our way or the highway?" I'm sure Griffin didn't want to give up Wiggins, but when you have a chance to get LeBron James, there really wasn't a choice at all.

That's why I don't understand this thread, enough time has not yet passed to really accurately say.

 

[Gus Zing]

Zach Lowe did a great job breaking down how we dont use Love correctly.

He was automatic on either the left elbow or at the top of the key last year in Minnesota. Also we dont give him enough opportunities in the post. He's still putting up 18/10.

If Wiggins lives up to his potential he'll be better. I'm not sure his game would have developed as soon with Kyrie and lately LeBron's Iso offense. Him standing in the corner wouldnt have given him the confidence or the repetition to improve his handles.

We just gotta figure out how to maximize Love's strengths. We do that. We wont worry about how well or great Wiggins does. Because we'll be competing for championships anyway.

This post from Realgm breaks it down perfectly.

All of what I put in the post is true -- or was true when I posted it -- whether you like it or not. There's really nothing else to say.

Advanced stats were created, I would imagine, with the thought in mind of disabusing false "eye tests." I think that's kind of the point of having 'numbers within the numbers.'

Now, as I said in my original post, the Wolves play better without Wiggins on the floor. Or they have so far this season up until this point. Let's examine two other measures of this phenomenon.

Oh, but there has been a change it would seem between the previous game and the win for Minnesota at Denver. And here it is:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _pbp::none



Before the Denver win, Wiggins was negative in On-Off Court. Which meant, as I said, that the Wolves played better with him off the court. That was an accurate statement. And here is another affirmation of the truth of what I said about the Wolves playing better without Wiggins on the Court. This data was from the start of the season up until 1/7/15:

http://www.82games.com/1415/14MIN7.HTM



So, these things are or were true whether or not you and I want them to be true. And they are true regardless of whatever narrative you feel I want to push.

* Until the win over Denver, the Wolves played better without Wiggins on the court according to the statistics

* After the win over Denver, the Wolves are playing better with Wiggins on the court according to the statistics

* The Wolves are 7-32 and the second-worst team in the league by record as I write this post

* Andrew Wiggins is currently ranked 491 out of 505 listed players in Basketball Reference's VORP listing as I write this post

Now, if people want to talk about splits or progress then there is a discussion to be had. Is Wiggins improving? Yes he is. What I'm discussing is the totality of the season up until this point. And the stats are what they are.

So if people want to compare Wiggins with someone like Durant, they can do that. If they want to compare Wiggins with someone who turned out to be a bust, they can do that. I'm not stopping anyone from making any argument they choose to make, I'm simply putting out the data I have come across as well.

I think Wiggins will be a good player in the league. Statistically, or in terms of impact measured in wins or advanced statistics, he's not there yet. That doesn't mean he won't get there, just that he's not there now. Maybe that will all change from now through the rest of January and on for the rest of this season. I don't know.

As far as watching Wiggins, I have watched Wiggins. I am both a "stats guy" as well as an "eye test" guy. In fact, I've been watching the NBA since Wiggins' dad Mitchell Wiggins played for my Houston Rockets back in the 1980's.

Someone else mentioned Love and Wiggins, or Wiggins fitting better with the Wolves than Love is with the Cavs. That's simply not statistically accurate. And I say that with the full knowledge that Love:

* isn't being used properly in Cleveland
* has apparently had a bad back for like a month
* is part of a very disappointing team at this point in time

As Bill Simmons said and I said here on Real GM some time ago, Love's 26/13/4 season last year produced a higher WS/48 number than any of Bird's 3 MVP seasons. That's freaking crazy. And that Wolves team was in the hunt for the playoffs for a good portion of the year.

Am I surprised that Love is having more of a positive impact with the Cavs than Wiggins seems to be having with the Wolves at the moment I write this post? No, I'm not. Love is an incredibly productive, multiple All Star level player. If he's not outperforming a rookie than something is probably seriously wrong.

I like Wiggins. I like Love. There's no incompatibility for me in that. I don't need Wiggins to suck to help Love look better. I don't need Love to suck to help Wiggins look better. I hope they both do well.

If you want to try to defeat an argument the best bet is probably to bring a counter-argument, not solely to try to pick at the existing argument. Is Wiggins rocking? Talk about his splits, talk about his last 13 games. Bring something more than a red pen to the other person's argument.

You'll almost certainly have more success and likely convince more people of your position.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I've pretty much sat this discussion out today. I'm comfortable with my stance on Love and the Cavaliers dating back far before he was a Cavalier. Additionally, I'm pretty comfortable with my batting average assessing the NBA before the site started. So, in saying that, I am seeing a ton of posts that are simply calling out members of RCF. I see plenty that call out "longtime members" specifically. I've also seen posts that are sinple minded enough to just say the site itself has a bad track record.

To that, I'd say just stop. It doesn't lead to anything more than defensive posts. How can "Longtime RCF members" be one unified voice if even staff disagree all the time? Whether or not the members with the most "thanks" or "likes" get a trade or player right seems much less relevant as long as they are discussing the topic without insulting people too get a rise out of them. I have no problem sending people packing for being an uninteresting antisocial dick, regardless of what a Cavaliers GM chooses to do with the team.

Continue the discussion, and if LeBron is really ready to start acting like a leader, this whole month long panic attack is going to end up pretty hilarious.

 

[gourimoko]

I think everybody will acknowledge his deficiencies, they might be worse than we expected. This was a package deal, so although you and I might not have cared for the trade; LeBron only agreed to come back to Cleveland because we could get Love.

Should we have just told LeBron "it's going to be our way or the highway?" I'm sure Griffin didn't want to give up Wiggins, but when you have a chance to get LeBron James, there really wasn't a choice at all.

That's why I don't understand this thread, enough time has not yet passed to really accurately say.

I don't think we can simply blame LeBron though. Management didn't hold out or play hardball, we caved before the season started. This fits Griffin's motif of not wanting to hold out the same way Grant or Ferry might; which can be both a good and bad trait.

Besides, if we were approaching this from a LeBron-centric standpoint, we would've assuredly drafted Jabari Parker.

To me, Wiggins was ideal, even more so than Love. I don't think the front office thought the same thing. We know LeBron didn't though.

 

[LeShaq]

Love
16/12/2 with 3-13 shots. Wins. +02

Wiggins
12/02/1 with 3-14 shots. Loss. -13

Another good day for the Cavs in terms of the trade.

 

[The Red Viper]

Wiggins has indeed been very good this season. Probably "Rookie Of The Year" as well. May go on to become an All-Star. While Love hasn't been underwhelming by his standards. But inspite of that, I would still do that trade all over again. I think many here have simply forgotten how fuckin' awesome Love was at Minnesota.

Also, There is no guarantee Wiggins would have performed as well as he is doing with Minnesota now, here at Cleveland. There, he doesn't have any expectations and can play freely without any pressure. Here he would have been under plenty of pressure and each play of his would have been under the microscope and overanalyzed. For a rookie, that could take a toll mentally. Now that he is at Minesotta, he can simply work on his game without worrying to improve the team because they don't have any expectations this season.

Coming back to Love, he was never amongst the top five players in the NBA like many projected him last year but he is still amongst the best power forwards in the game. Offensively, the dude is amongst the Top 10 players in the league. It hasn't worked out till now but that is down to many factors including Love not being fully fit. Yes, he is injury prone but there is a difference between out injured and playing with fifty or seventy percent fit. Once he is fully fit and gets in sync with the rest of the players. Especially that frontcourt of LeBron and Mozgov, we will get to see Love performing as well as he did in the last few years. Defensively he has never been that good but he can focus on that aspect here and try to improve that because offensively, he won't have close to the same workload he did at Minnesota. It was evident today in his performance. We saw a sneak-peek of what could possibly unravel. Love showed much more effort and he didn't look like a fish out of water on the defensive end with a proper center and a fully fit LeBron alongside him in the frontcourt. And, once the shots start falling, God Save The NBA!

 

[Stark]

Wiggins has indeed been very good this season. Probably "Rookie Of The Year" as well. May go on to become an All-Star. While Love hasn't been underwhelming by his standards. But inspite of that, I would still do that trade all over again. I think many here have simply forgotten how fuckin' awesome Love was at Minnesota.

Because he was the only option on a horrendous team. He's good, but he had massive stat inflations in Minnesota.

 

[CleveRocks]

Well in any case minny has no shot at a ring, and we do. While we are complaining about loves numbers, we might consider that no one believes we are utilizing love correctly at this point, and I dont think that is accidental. I think the coaching staff is trying to fix things in priority, and in the most recent games we are seeing the integration of the new guys and some tightening defense. Tonight Kyrie had as many assists as the entire bulls team, which is a move forward.

Next up is integrating Shump, but when we have the mechanics down and we start using love correctly, it will add ten points a game to our differential.

 

[chuck0609]

With the addition of Moz and a heathy seemingly motivated LBJ, it will be more difficult to expose Loves defensive liabilities.
Where Love must begin to improve is offensively, which is hit a higher percentage of his shots.
I don't think he's played horrible this year, but there's definite room for Improvement.
Give him some more time. As his role continues to define itself he will become another valuable weapon.
At least thats the hope.

 

[czvo]

Even then, not necessarily. That then leaves a large cap space to add someone else, and you know Gilbert would have no problem doing it. Might even be a better fit.

Not true. This team could have a little bit of room if Love leaves. They will be over the cap if Love leaves and Tristan gets paid. Love leaving is a disaster.

 

[Brandname]

Because he was the only option on a horrendous team. He's good, but he had massive stat inflations in Minnesota.

Then you've gotta say the same thing about Wiggins now. This Minnesota team is worse than Love's. Wiggins is a 3rd/4th option on this Cleveland team at best (assuming Love would not be with the team).