Dion Waiters Traded

CavsFan005 said:

Why not? Its only December now I don't think a few games early in the season is going to make or break our season.

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Because I think all we've got now is just the very beginnings of what we'll need to compete at a championship level. It's still fragile, and it may not be so easy to just pick up where we left off after a Dion experiment. And we still have a long way to go in terms of learning the offense, etc..

And what kind of message does that send to the rest of the team? Dion certainly hasn't earned a starting spot. I also don't think the plan would succeed anyway. After all, Dion was benched because he wasn't performing as a starter. Why would the result be any different now? I can't see the Big 3 deliberately making the worse basketball play just to try to make Dion look better. LBJ and KI might deliberately defy that, and really damage the relationship between the coach and the team.

Dion has to figure out how to contribute within the structure of a team that is playing to win right now. Hopefully he can. But if he can't, the bus shouldn't slow down just in the hope that he'll one day be able to catch up.

The Human Q-Tip said:

Because I think all we've got now is just the very beginnings of what we'll need to compete at a championship level. It's still fragile, and it may not be so easy to just pick up where we left off after a Dion experiment. And we still have a long way to go in terms of learning the offense, etc..

And what kind of message does that send to the rest of the team? Dion certainly hasn't earned a starting spot. I also don't think the plan would succeed anyway. After all, Dion was benched because he wasn't performing as a starter. Why would the result be any different now? I can't see the Big 3 deliberately making the worse basketball play just to try to make Dion look better. LBJ and KI might deliberately defy that, and really damage the relationship between the coach and the team.

Dion has to figure out how to contribute within the structure of a team that is playing to win right now. Hopefully he can. But if he can't, the bus shouldn't slow down just in the hope that he'll one day be able to catch up.

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Accordng to Dion, Blatt suggested Dion give it more time starting. Once Lebron pressured Dion into to volunteering to come off the bench.

Not sure how Dion didnt earn his starting spot. noone beat him out and he was the incumbent starter from last years team and looked fine in the role during the course of the preseason.

I still expect to See Dion starting before the year is out.

Overall Dion looks like an improved player this season even if the shooting stats arent backing that up.

Im okay with his role of the bench right now while Love, Irving and Lebron get their Chemistry issues worked out. but dont be surprised if Dion is the starting Shooting guard by the time the playoffs roll around.

Dion's 6 or 7 games he has really stepped up his defensive game. He is more physical inside the perimeter and with the overall team defensive improvement he is less often out of position defending someone else blown coverage.

Dion's skillset and "potential" will garner him an oversized contract. He's not long for this team. Trade him while he's cost-controlled and get something for him. He doesn't fit.

Tornicade said:

Accordng to Dion, Blatt suggested Dion give it more time starting. Once Lebron pressured Dion into to volunteering to come off the bench.

Not sure how Dion didnt earn his starting spot. noone beat him out and he was the incumbent starter from last years team and looked fine in the role during the course of the preseason.

I still expect to See Dion starting before the year is out.

Overall Dion looks like an improved player this season even if the shooting stats arent backing that up.

Im okay with his role of the bench right now while Love, Irving and Lebron get their Chemistry issues worked out. but dont be surprised if Dion is the starting Shooting guard by the time the playoffs roll around.

Dion's 6 or 7 games he has really stepped up his defensive game. He is more physical inside the perimeter and with the overall team defensive improvement he is less often out of position defending someone else blown coverage.

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Really? Stats to back up "overall" please? Because if there is something that can overcome his atrocious offensive game and piss poor attitude, I'd like to see it. You're the master at picking and choosing small sample sizes to fit whatever argument you're trying to make. I'd like to see what stats you can come up with that says "overall" Dion is an improved player.

My take right now is that the coach is trying to break him of this bad attitude and get him to grow up a bit. Blatt said very strongly in his post game interview last night that "Dion is a professional" and then went further to emphasize that he is not a first year player.

That combined with the fact that they cut Will Cherry who has been playing almost as many minutes as Waiters, makes me think the coach is trying to teach him a lesson. He is emphasizing that Dion is not a kid and is expected to be professional.

If it was just a shooting slump I think he would let him play through it. It looks like he is trying to get Dion to control his emotions instead of arguing with the refs now. I am sure this is coming from Blatt.

I really hope it works because apparently he has not learned the unselfish play that he has himself played well in before.

I like Dion, but this isn't going to cut it. If Blatt can fix this I will follow him anywhere.

Spencer Hawes said:

Really? Stats to back up "overall"

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Did you even read what you quote? He said the stats don't back it up. Dion is a better player, better defensively, better finishing, better free throw shooting. He can't hit an open jumper right now, but that's not going to last. His attitude isn't better, which is the biggest thing holding him back, but as always, it's going to be a work in progress.

CavsSimmy said:

The Cavs are in an incredibly difficult position with Dion right now. His value has diminished significantly, and it's become more and more painfully obvious that with each game, Dion just doesn't fit into this Cleveland jigsaw.

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Funny how radically people's minds change after 13 games. (I'm not picking on you personally, just taking a representative post.) When Kevin Pelton said this summer that a Waiters for Iman Shumpert swap represented decent value for Dion, Pelton was castigated. Seemed like a decent trade to me, though I was concerned with Shumpert's health.

Anyway, the good news is that most teams in the league are saying something similar about one of their own players, many of whom have worse or longer contracts than Dion's, and it wouldn't be surprising if one of them would be interested in taking a chance on Waiters. It would be helpful if he could put a few decent games together, but there will be scouts or front offices who remember he did play better after the all star break last year.

One guy I am thinking of, in part because the Cavs just played Indy, is CJ Miles, who has struggled with some odd physical ailment that is causing him dizziness:

http://www.indystar.com/story/insid...j-miles-discusses-illness-and-slump/19084605/

Miles is on a 4 year contract.

Anyway, he's just one example of a 2 guard who may be a better fit for this team and could conceivably be made available. Indy could view Waiters as a guy who could create some offense on a team that badly needs it, even when George Hill returns.

Really kovanovich? Because honestly I think Waiters for Shumpert is a terrible trade -- it was when Pelton (that moron) suggested it and it is today.

I think way too many folks are judging Waiters unfairly, and only on these last 13 games and not on the body of his work last season; particularly after the All-Star break. Season-long he was very similar to Brad Beal in his production.

I think, on the whole Waiters is in a bad position as he's finally realizing that he'll likely not even get to be the 4th option on offense, but he'll be behind guys like Anderson Varejao and maybe even Shawn Marion. It's unfortunate, because he was poised to have a breakout season.

I do think Waiters is a bad fit on the Cavaliers (considering his outspokenness regarding "being a starter in this league").

I have no problem trading the guy, I just want to trade him for value; and Shumpert isn't value.

Spencer Hawes said:

Really? Stats to back up "overall" please? Because if there is something that can overcome his atrocious offensive game and piss poor attitude, I'd like to see it. You're the master at picking and choosing small sample sizes to fit whatever argument you're trying to make. I'd like to see what stats you can come up with that says "overall" Dion is an improved player.

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it a bit harder to present the stats since the add on that worked perfectly well in beta was never put on the live sight but here are a few things
Defense Category GP G DFGM DFGA DFG% FREQ FG% Diff%
Overall 12 12 1.4 2.8 50.0 100% 43.8 6.2
3 Pointers 12 7 0.3 0.7 37.5 23.5% 36.5 1.0
2 Pointers 12 12 1.2 2.2 53.8 76.5% 47.7 6.2
Less Than 6 Ft 12 7 0.4 0.6 71.4 20.6% 61.1 10.3
Less Than 10 Ft 12 7 0.6 1.0 58.3 35.3% 55.9 2.5
Greater Than 15 Ft 12 10 0.8 1.7 45.0 58.8% 38.0 7.0

Defense Category GP G DFGM DFGA DFG% FREQ FG% Diff%
Overall 6 6 1.0 2.5 40.0 100% 46.4 -6.4
3 Pointers 6 4 0.5 0.8 60.0 33.3% 39.4 20.6
2 Pointers 6 6 0.5 1.7 30.0 66.7% 51.3 -21.3
Less Than 6 Ft 6 4 0.3 0.7 50.0 26.7% 62.4 -12.4
Less Than 10 Ft 6 4 0.3 1.0 33.3 40.0% 61.1 -27.8
Greater Than 15 Ft 6 5 0.7 1.5 44.4 60.0% 39.1 5.4
not sure how this will format when it post but it shows that overall Dion had +6.2 differential when defending. lower is better the differential is comparing the opponent players regular average to his average when playing Dion.

As you can see the last 6 games Dion has Been a big part and positive contributor to the teams defensive improvement

so improved defensively supported by stats.... Check

This Season Dion off the Dribble
Dribbles GP G Freq FGM FGA FG% eFG% Freq 2FGM 2FGA 2FG% Freq 3PM 3PA 3P%
0 Dribbles 13 6 28.2% 0.3 0.8 36.4 50.0 5.1% 0.1 0.1 50.0 23.1% 0.2 0.7 33.3
1 Dribble 13 6 15.4% 0.3 0.5 66.7 66.7 15.4% 0.3 0.5 66.7 0.0% 0.0 0.0 -
2 Dribbles 13 6 20.5% 0.3 0.6 50.0 50.0 20.5% 0.3 0.6 50.0 0.0% 0.0 0.0 -
3-6 Dribbles 13 8 30.8% 0.1 0.9 8.3 8.3 25.6% 0.1 0.8 10.0 5.1% 0.0 0.1 0.0
7+ Dribbles 13 2 5.1% 0.1 0.1 100 100 5.1% 0.1 0.1 100 0.0% 0.0 0.0
Last season
Dribbles GP G Freq FGM FGA FG% eFG% Freq 2FGM 2FGA 2FG% Freq 3PM 3PA 3P%
0 Dribbles 59 48 30.6% 0.6 1.4 44.7 56.5 12.2% 0.3 0.6 52.9 18.3% 0.3 0.9 39.2
1 Dribble 59 25 13.7% 0.3 0.6 47.4 50.0 11.2% 0.3 0.5 51.6 2.5% 0.0 0.1 28.6
2 Dribbles 59 28 12.2% 0.2 0.6 41.2 44.1 10.8% 0.2 0.5 40.0 1.4% 0.0 0.1 50.0
3-6 Dribbles 59 40 25.2% 0.6 1.2 51.4 52.9 20.9% 0.6 1.0 58.6 4.3% 0.0 0.2 16.7
7+ Dribbles 59 29 18.3% 0.3 0.9 39.2 40.2 16.5% 0.3 0.8 41.3 1.8% 0.0 0.1

Dion has significantly cut down his shooting attempts afteer 7+ dribbles. He isnt holding on to the ball as long. He still needs to work on his decision making after 3-6 dribbles and you can tell he can be effective in that range based off last year but he isnt sinking the shot.

Last season 18 percent of his touches he held the ball more than 6 seconds.. this season its only 5% of the time he is holding on to the ball.

Dions assist Ration has increased to 21% for the season . last season it was around 15%

Dion has struggled on the road but has been pretty solid at home but in both his rookie and sophomore years he improved his production from the first half of the season to the 2nd.

SteelSmack said:

Did you even read what you quote? He said the stats don't back it up. Dion is a better player, better defensively, better finishing, better free throw shooting. He can't hit an open jumper right now, but that's not going to last. His attitude isn't better, which is the biggest thing holding him back, but as always, it's going to be a work in progress.

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Why? He's just regressing to the mean right now. He got hot after the break last season and now he's gone cold. His career numbers show us he's a streak shooter who is generally going to be on the inefficient side of things. His shooting numbers won't remain this bad, but the shooting numbers he put up the last 20 or so games last year weren't going to last either. This is who he is. He'll give you 10-15 games of good, solid shooting and then 10-15 games of poor shooting.

SteelSmack said:

Did you even read what you quote? He said the stats don't back it up. Dion is a better player, better defensively, better finishing, better free throw shooting. He can't hit an open jumper right now, but that's not going to last. His attitude isn't better, which is the biggest thing holding him back, but as always, it's going to be a work in progress.

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he'd have a much better chance of breaking out of the slump if he would fix his shooting form.

I'm a big fan of Dion but this all on him. The Cavs tried to fit a square peg in a round hole (I think this is a bit unfair as I think Dion could be a very good standstill shooter as he gets older) which he didn't particularly like. The move to the bench should be an opportunity for him to play like he prefers and gets the shots that both and frankly the team need. The bench scoring has been pathetic and despite people trying to claim our starters are enough, it clearly has been an issue as the lack of scoring off the bench leads to runs that don't continue or the opposite little chance the bench can pick up the slack if the starters are having a tough time.

What's frustrating as I imagine his coaches have tried to tell him, he really has the talent to be a real plus on the team (not many guys who can be both quality shooters off the catch and also create). That being said, Dion is a notorious slow starter and has been dramatically better after New Year's in each of first two years in the league. I wouldn't be suprised if the same thing happens particularly when Delly gets back: they have good chemistry together and this was one of few real positives from last year.

Rich said:

Why? He's just regressing to the mean right now. He got hot after the break last season and now he's gone cold. His career numbers show us he's a streak shooter who is generally going to be on the inefficient side of things. His shooting numbers won't remain this bad, but the shooting numbers he put up the last 20 or so games last year weren't going to last either. This is who he is. He'll give you 10-15 games of good, solid shooting and then 10-15 games of poor shooting.

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Month GP MIN FGM FGA FG%
October 1 5.3 1.0 2.0 50.0
November 11 8.1 1.5 3.1 47.1
December 11 10.4 2.2 4.8 45.3
January 15 9.0 2.2 4.7 46.5
February 6 9.6 1.7 4.5 37.0
March 14 10.0 2.2 5.4 40.8
April 5 7.3 2.2 3.2 68.8
Except it isnt true.

We can talk about Dion's personality, how he fits, and so on but in the scheme of things his actual basketball shooting mechanics are completely broken and he has reverted to the guy from 2 years ago.

His feet start from behind and kicks them forward while his body is in fadeaway motion. It would be like sitting on a seesaw and trying to shoot a basketball while in motion. Your mind is trying to keep up with the change of depth and it makes for a helluva hard shot.

It's just basic fundamental's that he's lacking in both finishing with the basketball and shooting. The fact that he hasn't improved is what is worrying.

The other stuff comes with experience and maturity.

Tornicade said:

Not sure how Dion didnt earn his starting spot. noone beat him out and he was the incumbent starter from last years team and looked fine in the role during the course of the preseason.

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I'm talking about this year, and the thought of putting him back in the starting lineup to showcase him. He didn't play well as a starter, was moved to the bench, and hasn't played well there either. In the meantime, the guy who replaced him -- Marion -- has been contributing more as a starter than Dion did. So moving Dion back to a starting role to replace a guy who outplayed him would be giving him a starting position he hasn't earned.

Overall Dion looks like an improved player this season even if the shooting stats arent backing that up.

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I'm just not seeing that at all. He occasionally is good defensively, but we still are getting the exact same mental drift/sulk and inconsistency we saw his first two years. If he doesn't get the opportunities he thinks he should, or even if he does but he misses and doesn't think he gets the calls, the rest of his game suffers. You get the arms lifted in the air then dropped at his side, lack of movement on offense, and standing around when playing off-ball defense.

Maybe we could keep putting up with this stuff if we didn't acquire Love and LBJ, and were still trying to develop a young squad centered around KI, Dion, etc.. But we're trying to win now, and the time for coddling him or anyone else is over.

We're no longer at the point where potential/upside are more valuable than the ability to contribute right now. At least, not for guys who are expected to play major minutes.