Cleveland Browns Quarterback Position

[Chris]

Can't believe were breaking down Josh McCown on here.

Every time I think were at rock bottom.

 

[Phills14]

Yeah, I'm out of town and don't have the kind of job where I can listen to sports talk during work... but I can speak to the general tone that has come from media covering what happened with the Browns last season, and why there seems to be a negative backhand coming back to the franchise in how they dealt with the QB situation.

Nobody should be assessing what McCown has as assets to work with, free agency doesn't start until Tuesday and the draft is over a month away. He should have better assets around him, but nobody knows yet. Nobody should be gradnig Hoyer or McCown because we haven't seen wat Hoyer's new situation is nor what he accomplishes in that situation. Same can be said fro McCown.

What the media CAN comment on is the double speak that came from the organization last season, and the expectations coming from Haslam and Farmer that they can do what they want, treat employees as harshly and unprofessionally as they want, and then tell the media different narratives that do not match the sources around the NFL. I think a pro like Pat McManamin is telling it like it is because he wants practices from the top of the organization to change, and he is in a position to nudge the powerful into a position of change.

And frankly, I'm not exactly sure of what is being said today. I'm teaching ATM.

Pat McManamon is coming off like a writer who personally likes Hoyer and is actively campaigning for the local kid. He wants to write the underdog who works his way from cast off to home town starter feel good story every week. He's knocking McCown because he's awful (which he generally is) but in the same breath saying they should continue to give Hoyer a chance. It doesn't make sense.

As far as the Browns double speak. I'm not sure what you are getting at in regards to Brian Hoyer. Hoyer really hasn't been talked about glowingly by Farmer since the start. He's always said Hoyer will be back if both sides agree to be back. I don't recall anything other than that being talked about by the Browns even when they were 7-4 and riding high.

It's REALLY early to grade the QB situation. As you said, FA hasn't started, the draft is over a month away. The position and frankly most other offensive positions should look differently in May than it does now. At that point we can make reasonable assessments on where the Browns are going. Until then, we are analyzing without the full information which gets you in trouble.

 

[AZ_]

There is no narrative where Hoyer was mistreated by the organization. Aside from the text message debacle, that's as far as any public commentary about not wanting Brian Hoyer has come from.

He had his shot, he lost his shot.

Saying the organization didn't give him a fair shake or that he was mistreated is pretty unfair, IMO.

 

[Soda]

@Randolphkeys I'm not so sure that Pettine has treated any employee unfairly/harshly... Where does that come from?

 

[Randolphkeys]

There is no narrative where Hoyer was mistreated by the organization. Aside from the text message debacle, that's as far as any public commentary about not wanting Brian Hoyer has come from.

Look, Hoyer wasn't Farmer or Haslam's guy. He was brought in to be a backup two years ago and outperformed expectations. If you don't see how the power structure above the coaches continued to erode the situation around Hoyer's rise to a middling to low-end starter, I'd push you to read what the Turners, Shanahan, and anyone else exiting the franchise has said. Not just Pat McManamon.

When I was talking about a narrative, there is a narrative coming from the front office. Sometimes that narrative includes Haslam pushing his decisions on general people without specifics, sometimes that narrative puts employees in a bad position. Why does the head coach have to review film with non-football people like Alec Sheiner and Farmer on Monday mornings? Why can't they keep offensive assistant coaches past one year, when they have a better resume than both Sheiner and Farmer?

If you read the Jason LaConfora article that reveals sources outside of the current power structure, there is certainly a difference in what goes on behind closed doors and what is said to the media.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer...on-manziel-starts-with-owner-haslams-meddling

So @Soda I'm not saying Pettine has mistreated anyone. I actually believe he is constantly hamstrung by the front office by their input. Pettine seemed to play his cards right by sticking with Hoyer until the team was mathematically out of the playoffs. He did so despite angry texts from the frustrated front office people above him. Probably did it because while they had some pipe dream of Manziel being ready, he clearly wasn't.

He had his shot, he lost his shot.

I'm not arguing against that. Hoyer had players and coaches standing up to the front office for him to continue playing, and he didn't deliver. At the same time, I don't know if you have ever had undermining bosses. I have, it's hard to give your best performance when you know that people at the top aren't exactly in your corner and never have been.

Saying the organization didn't give him a fair shake or that he was mistreated is pretty unfair, IMO.

Never said "mistreated" (at least I hope the rest of my words were clear) although I'd say the coaching staff have been close to fitting that description. I think he was in as unsupportive and toxic of a situation as I can recall at the pro level. I also think some of this praise of McCown as a mentor is an attempt to deflect Manziel's failures onto his competition with Hoyer, and that disappoints me. Manziel was the reason Manziel didn't look like he belonged on the field. Browns will find that out this year if they didn't learn it last year.

 

[Soda]

Why does the head coach have to review film with non-football people like Alec Sheiner and Farmer on Monday mornings?

Small correction... Scheiner and Farmer didn't review tape with the coaches, but rather, Scheiner watched tape with Farmer.. The coaches watched film separately.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Small correction... Scheiner and Farmer didn't review tape with the coaches, but rather, Scheiner watched tape with Farmer.. The coaches watched film separately.

From La Canfoya:

"At 6 a.m. every Monday, Pettine is joined by Farmer and Scheiner to watch film, with the division between ownership and day-to-day coaching decisions becoming increasingly blurred."

 

[Soda]

From La Canfoya:

"At 6 a.m. every Monday, Pettine is joined by Farmer and Scheiner to watch film, with the division between ownership and day-to-day coaching decisions becoming increasingly blurred."

What you posted was from February 4, 2015...... From ESPN on February 24, 2015...

Scheiner said he occasionally watches film with Farmer "to sit in there and try to learn and listen," as he did with scouts while on the Dallas Cowboys staff before joining Cleveland in 2012.

Pettine said last week he never watched film Mondays at 6 a.m.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...-scheiner-denies-meddling-football-operations

Also:
Now, if you're going to say that LaCanfora was right and Scheiner was lying, I'm not gonna go there.

 

[AZ_]

I'm not going to argue against a potentially unstable power structure at the top.

What I'm not buying is the thought that since Hoyer wasn't anyone's favorite that he was mistreated by the organization in any way, shape or form. That certainly seems like where you're leading, so far back as when you claimed that Hoyer's benching was the result of contractual bonuses to be paid based on playing time, which was subsequently proven to be very false.

Farmer and others lauded his ability to do everything right off the field and from the moment Manziel was drafted gave him the chance to earn his keep and he kept that job throughout most of the season until the league finally adjusted to a point where he was no longer a viable option.

 

[SanduskyCav]

Glad to see Hoyer go, I was so sick and tired of hearing Hoyer say his record speaks for itself and he deserves to be a starter. The "I am a winner" statement was getting old. Tebow was a winner too, look where he is.

Not comparing the players, just the statement.

 

[Randolphkeys]

That certainly seems like where you're leading, so far back as when you claimed that Hoyer's benching was the result of contractual bonuses to be paid based on playing time, which was subsequently proven to be very false.

Last season I had really eye opening stuff emailed to me that ended up in other articles, that one fizzled out a few hours after I passed it on. It happens.

 

[Surge]

Aside from a better offensive line, I see no reason why McCown has any better circumstances here.

McCown started his season with the OC taking an indefinite leave, then quitting. He was replaced by a quarterbacks coach with no experience calling plays.

Then Doug Martin got hurt. The offensive line sucked HARD, and the defense was TERRIBLE. It felt like the Bucs were always behind and having to chuck it around to try and come back.

It was a bad, bad environment for a quarterback.

At least Cleveland showed flashes of a running game, a decent OLine, and defense that kept most games competitive.

 

[Soda]

He was replaced by a quarterbacks coach with no experience calling plays.

I agree with your post; however, Flip.....

 

[Chris]

There is no narrative where Hoyer was mistreated by the organization. Aside from the text message debacle, that's as far as any public commentary about not wanting Brian Hoyer has come from.

He had his shot, he lost his shot.

Saying the organization didn't give him a fair shake or that he was mistreated is pretty unfair, IMO.

Agreed. Besides the GM of the team sending disparaging text messages about him to the sideline, Hoyer was treated great.

I was never really a Hoyer guy though and am not sad to see him leave. I think it's ridiculous how people keep going "He was 7-4!!!! 7-4!!!!" or citing him winning "10 games as a starter" (it's actually 9 I believe, but people throw in that Buffalo game where he got hurt early on for some reason). "All I care about are wins and losses!!!" every time you try to bring up stats that show Hoyer just...wasnt very good...at all.

Obnoxious to say the least.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I don't blame people for being tired of hearing the wins and losses argument. If you use other measures, such as QBR, McCown still didn't play as well or as consistently as Hoyer last season.

Most measures I'm looking at say Hoyer wasn't good in four games (JAX, HOU, BUF, IND) he was between effective to good in the other nine games. McCown played well against Washington but stunk to the depths of the Hoyer 3 game rough patch in nine games. I read reasons McCown wasn't as bad as the numbers suggest, I read reasons Farmer thought Hoyer was worse than the numbers suggest.

I personally feel like I'm getting sold a line, but then again this is all pre-free agency and nothing really matters until the pads go back on. Proof will play out if and when Hoyer is slinging the ball for another team and McCown is under center for the BRIGHT Orange and Brown.

What I think matters more to journalists trashing the move from Hoyer to McCown is what it represents in the grander scheme: Another year, another person who wanted to contribute leaving on bad terms with some bullheaded personalities at the top.