Dolan: Tribe will lose 16 million this year

[Chris]

CC was and is overrated.

 

[camakazee]

Just stop talking please...

You have no idea what you're talking about as usual.

:rofl:

I look forward to your one line attacks in future threads.

 

[PIP]

CC was and is overrated.

So true.. Never liked him on the Indians, and I hate that he's on my team currently..

He is not an ace..

Lots of Yankee hating going on here.. Bottom line is this--it's survival of the fittest... You don't have the means, don't sit down at the table..

Teams like the Twins (lower payroll) and Cardinals (slightly higher) are able to play at high levels most seasons... The White Sox spend under a 100 million, and have been able to compete...

The Indians problems are much less to do in regards to the ownership than it is upper management, scouting, and coaching...

They've made errors in the drafting process.. Thus, no young home grown talent on the roster contributing currently... They've made terrible financial decisions in terms of locking up core players such as Westbrook, Carmona, Hafner... They signed Kerry Wood to close, and he's been terrible..

*Poor choices *tough luck *unfortunate, whatever you want to call it ? whomever is making these decisions is not doing a good job...

The team has zero direction... Are they a team rich in pitching ?? Power hitters ?? Patient httters ?? Defense ?? Speed ??

Do they take a lot of pitches ?? Do they steal bases ?? Do they play small ball ??

No to all of this... They're just a middle of the road, average to below average team that has nothing going for them... They're the Royals...

 

[cdt]

You're right winning has nothing to do with it. That's why everyone rocks Knicks gear. I'm not about to get into a debate in the Indians forum...I can't stand this team.

 

[JayP146]

PIP, you've gone a bit too far by saying they're the Royals.

 

[MoFlo]

You're right winning has nothing to do with it. That's why everyone rocks Knicks gear. I'm not about to get into a debate in the Indians forum...I can't stand this team.

Nobody's saying that winning has nothing to do with it.. but if you're Dolan & you have an $82 M payroll, you've had back to back underachieving seasons, are near the bottom of the barrel in attendance, and are scheduled to lose $16 M this season - why would you keep investing in the same 25 guys who have been a part of that? Wouldn't you want to shake things up on the roster a bit.. it's not ownership's fault.. he's invested the money.. Pip hit the nail on the head right here:

They've made errors in the drafting process.. Thus, no young home grown talent on the roster contributing currently... They've made terrible financial decisions in terms of locking up core players such as Westbrook, Carmona, Hafner... They signed Kerry Wood to close, and he's been terrible..

*Poor choices *tough luck *unfortunate, whatever you want to call it ? whomever is making these decisions is not doing a good job...

The team has zero direction... Are they a team rich in pitching ?? Power hitters ?? Patient httters ?? Defense ?? Speed ??

Do they take a lot of pitches ?? Do they steal bases ?? Do they play small ball ??

No to all of this... They're just a middle of the road, average to below average team that has nothing going for them... They're the Royals...

Although, Pip, I wouldn't quite call them the Royals, but I will definitely agree that this team has no identity..

Terrific post here, and not to nitpick :chuckles:, but we do take a lot of pitches.. although, I'll admit, I haven't been paying too much attention to that this season, but I know we've been known the past few years to take close to the most pitches in the league..

Whether it's Wedge or the next manager, we need an identity & we need to do a better job of drafting..

I don't think it's Shapiro's fault with the free agents, however.. like you said, it seems to be just bad luck.. Westbrook was a solid re-signing, Wood was a solid signing.. Westbrook happened to get hurt & Wood's never really gotten into a groove, as he's not had very many opportunities..

The difference between the mid-90s Tribe and the present day Tribe is the talent level of the home grown talent.. if you think back, not a lot of the '95 Indians came from our own system, but the talent level of those who did was unbelievable:

1995 Indians home grown talent:

-Jim Thome
-Manny Ramirez
-Albert Belle
-Charles Nagy
-Herbert Perry
-Chad Ogea
-Julian Tavarez
-Alan Embree

That's a total of 8, which is less than 33% of the roster

2009 Indians home grown talent: (Opening Day roster just to be fair)

-Jhonny Peralta
-Scott Lewis
-Fausto Carmona
-Jensen Lewis
-Rafael Perez
-Trevor Crowe
-Jeremy Sowers
-Ben Francisco
-Victor Martinez
-Ryan Garko

(Note: The same amount exist now: with Gimenez, Sipp, Toregas, Laffey, Huff in the place of S. Lewis, Francisco, Martinez, Garko, Perez)

That's 10, or 40% of the roster was/is home grown talent..

The difference is talent level.. Look at the 1st list.. Belle, Manny, Thome all were stars.. Nagy was a very solid starter, Tavarez was a decent reliever, Perry was solid in his platoon role & Embree/Ogea were serviceable pitchers.. but nobody on this list is horrible..

Now the 2nd list: We all know about Victor.. Garko may end up being a solid major leaguer if he plays everyday.. Perez & Lewis were amazing, but now who knows.. Francisco & Crowe look like 4th OFs, with Crowe possibly being a potential lead off man.. Sowers & Lewis at best, are #3's, but will probably end up being back end guys.. Carmona's completely fallen off the map after an amazing season.. I like Jhonny, but he has been inconsistent.. Besides Victor, no stars or anybody that stands out..

 

[The Oi]

if you think back, not a lot of the '95 Indians came from our own system, but the talent level of those who did was unbelievable:

1995 Indians home grown talent:

-Jim Thome
-Manny Ramirez
-Albert Belle
-Charles Nagy
-Herbert Perry
-Chad Ogea
-Julian Tavarez
-Alan Embree

STUDS

 

[Wes]

I found it convenient that the $16 million Dolan said the team is going to lose this year is the exact amount they would have paid Martinez and Lee next season.

Hmmmm....

 

[tedginnjr]

You're right winning has nothing to do with it. That's why everyone rocks Knicks gear. I'm not about to get into a debate in the Indians forum...I can't stand this team.

I hate to burst your bubble but...

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/32/nba08_New-York-Knicks_328815.html

The Knicks are the highest valued franchise and make the most revenue in the entire NBA.... so yes, everyone does rock Knicks gear.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/32/nba08_NBA-Team-Valuations_Rank.html

The Cavs are 5th...

Most Valuable NBA Teams

New York Knicks
Los Angeles Lakers
Chicago Bulls
Detroit Pistons
Cleveland Cavaliers
Houston Rockets
Dallas Mavericks
Phoenix Suns
Boston Celtics
San Antonio Spurs

 

[AZ_]

Did Chardon really compare CC Sabathia to LeBron James in terms of franchise player?

Jesus Christ...that is a new low for this board.

 

[Chris]

So true.. Never liked him on the Indians, and I hate that he's on my team currently..

He is not an ace..

Lots of Yankee hating going on here.. Bottom line is this--it's survival of the fittest... You don't have the means, don't sit down at the table..

Teams like the Twins (lower payroll) and Cardinals (slightly higher) are able to play at high levels most seasons... The White Sox spend under a 100 million, and have been able to compete...

The Indians problems are much less to do in regards to the ownership than it is upper management, scouting, and coaching...

They've made errors in the drafting process.. Thus, no young home grown talent on the roster contributing currently... They've made terrible financial decisions in terms of locking up core players such as Westbrook, Carmona, Hafner... They signed Kerry Wood to close, and he's been terrible..

*Poor choices *tough luck *unfortunate, whatever you want to call it ? whomever is making these decisions is not doing a good job...

The team has zero direction... Are they a team rich in pitching ?? Power hitters ?? Patient httters ?? Defense ?? Speed ??

Do they take a lot of pitches ?? Do they steal bases ?? Do they play small ball ??

No to all of this... They're just a middle of the road, average to below average team that has nothing going for them... They're the Royals...

I said we are the Royals before and everyone said "No, we're not that bad yet!"

Simply because we've had more winning seasons in the last decade, or what not, does not make the present any better.

 

[GreasySpread36]

"We will look at everything at the end of the season," said Dolan. "But we have to look at the full body of work. If you look at the last four seasons, we're fifth in the American League in wins, just behind the major markets. That's a significant accomplishment in today's baseball economy.

"If every four or five years we can have a shot at the World Series like we did in 2007. And compete for a playoff spot like we did in 2005, that's as good as it gets in this market.

See, this attitude is precisely why the club doesn't draw. "Well gee, the best we can do is get lucky once every half-decade." Sorry Larry, in "today's baseball economy" you're going to have to do better than that. Don't they understand that if they put a club on the field that wins consistently, people will show up consistently? Because they will. That's the only way they will. Contending one year, then being out of it by June the next two-three years... that just isn't going to cut it.

If this team contended consistently, people would show up. They'd find the money. The economy at bottom isn't the reason this team isn't drawing.

 

[MoFlo]

I said we are the Royals before and everyone said "No, we're not that bad yet!"

Simply because we've had more winning seasons in the last decade, or what not, does not make the present any better.

First of all, why is that not a valid reason to you?

Would you not rather at least contend for a playoff spot every other year or every 3 years than continue to suck year after year?

The Royals got their reputation for being in the cellar year after year after year.. why do you think you're comparing bad teams to them?

There's a big difference in contending for a playoff spot every 2 or 3 years than finishing near the bottom in not only the division, but the entire league year after year..

Besides that, we have a history of turning it on late in the season.. the Royals just continue to suck all the way through..

You can't expect a mid market team to consistently contend for the Series year after year.. Why do you think both Central divisions are dog fights year in and year out? They're full of mid market teams.. and they fluctuate through good years and bad years.. Once in a while, you will have a team that wins the divisions a few years in a row, but I guarantee you in at least a couple of those years, they were a bad team that just happened to win the division because it sucked..

We've had 2 bad seasons and all of a sudden, we're the Royals or Pirates, who can't even finish above .500 in a fucking decade?! I don't think so

 

[Chris]

First of all, why is that not a valid reason to you?

Would you not rather at least contend for a playoff spot every other year or every 3 years than continue to suck year after year?

The Royals got their reputation for being in the cellar year after year after year.. why do you think you're comparing bad teams to them?

There's a big difference in contending for a playoff spot every 2 or 3 years than finishing near the bottom in not only the division, but the entire league year after year..

Besides that, we have a history of turning it on late in the season.. the Royals just continue to suck all the way through..

You can't expect a mid market team to consistently contend for the Series year after year.. Why do you think both Central divisions are dog fights year in and year out? They're full of mid market teams.. and they fluctuate through good years and bad years.. Once in a while, you will have a team that wins the divisions a few years in a row, but I guarantee you in at least a couple of those years, they were a bad team that just happened to win the division because it sucked..

We've had 2 bad seasons and all of a sudden, we're the Royals or Pirates, who can't even finish above .500 in a fucking decade?! I don't think so

I dunno man. Hearing Shapiro say he's "content and happy" with contending 2 years out of 4 is a little disconcerting.

 

[runnaman24]

I really wish that Larry Dolan would sell the team to someone who cares....heck I would love to see Dan Gilbert buy all the Cleveland sports teams, at least he cares and tries to put a winning team together. I know they are different sports, but doesnt the same thing apply? The Cavs have been close to winning a title the past couple of years and they keep changing the team and pretty drastically too, but you have the Indians who get close once and since they were close once WILL NOT CHANGE anything. If you want to win, get some talent to get you there.....if you want more fans in the stands, show you care as an owner in going out to sign PROVEN talent. No, siging veterans that "used to be good and got hurt, but we think they can be productive" doesnt count (Dellucci, Elarton, Michaels, Millwood, Pavano, and many others although some have worked out). Im not even that old and Im sick of seeing so many guys like Marty Cordova, Chris MacGruder, Brady Anderson, Danys Baez, Karim Garcia, Matt Lawton, David Segui, Bob Wickman......these are just some of the guys that Ive thought of. They might have had one good year with other teams, so we sign them and some are unproven, young talent that dont amount to much at all. Do you expect me to get excited over this Mr. Dolan? I usually go to at least 10 games a year, this year I went to 5 within the first month of the season, but my excitement has worn off after watching very frustrating baseball.....in part because of lack of talent and in part because of management (dont get me started). I love Cleveland sports, but the Cavs seem to be the only ones showing any love back to the fans.