Love/Wiggins Trade Revisited

[gourimoko]

Guys, like I said, I really hope Kevin Love pans out and puts all this shit to rest. Once we win a championship, this will all become a distant memory.

 

[Pioneer10]

@MirORich , having watched James play both here and in Miami, unless something changes, I don't think he'll last very long. He depends on his athleticism to get to the hole, to get his game going, to take hits, and outperform his opponents.

I'm not the only person who thinks this either, that's one of the reasons LeBron wanted to go with a lighter build, to extend his career. But I think that's a mistake. He should be moving towards becoming a full-time power-forward, not a full-time guard.

Maybe but we'd need to get a guy like Livingston back to make this happen or Shumpert is going to have to really improve his ballhandling. Lebron's the PG for this team and Kyrie the SG from an offensive perspective and it looks lethal right now. Long term if we want to switch that around we're going to have to get the appropriate personal to make that happen

 

[MirORich]

@MirORich , having watched James play both here and in Miami, unless something changes, I don't think he'll last very long. He depends on his athleticism to get to the hole, to get his game going, to take hits, and outperform his opponents.

I'm not the only person who thinks this either, that's one of the reasons LeBron wanted to go with a lighter build, to extend his career. But I think that's a mistake. He should be moving towards becoming a full-time power-forward, not a full-time guard.

@gourimoko I appreciate what you're bringing to this thread because you're not just reducing things to a "pick sides", all or nothing mentality.

As far as my post that you responded to, I'm not under the illusion that LeBron will be the best player in the world in 4 years or the athletic player he still is now. I know his game will have to evolve. But with how much it already has, how much better his shot is, his ability to post up, baby sky hooks, turnaround jumpers, etc I think he can still be a high level impact player late into his career. And I also think that Kyrie in his prime can be as good as it gets. So I think we have a championship window of 3-4 years based around the way the LeBron James plays now.

But I don't think it's out of the question to suggest that there may be another championship window with an older LeBron deferring more to a fully matured Kyrie and Love and whoever else is on the team at that point for another 3-4 year beyond that.

Will it happen. Who knows. But I just don't see some massive window shutting forever in 4 years. Not with a 26 year old Kyrie Irving. Not with a 30 year old Kevin Love.

Something to mention about LeBrons stats. His 2P% is drifting steadily up to the point where its getting close to his first year in Miami. His 3P % is already above that first year in Miami. His insane percentages in years 3 and 4 in Miami where based on comfort, chemistry, and the whole team knowing exactly the right looks for him to get and exploit. I think some similar seasons will happen here with LeBron in years 2-4 as that same comfort and chemistry grows. I also think you'll see the same thing happen with Kyrie and Loves percentages. I'm so excited for this run of Cavs basketball over the course of these first 3-4 years(and then beyond) much more so than I'm fixated on where things stand on game 49 of year one(which is a pretty good place as it is).

 

[Biw]

Article just posted at ESPN:

MINNEAPOLIS -- It’s a question that is going to be asked over and over again as time goes on, but it especially can’t be avoided on a night such as Saturday, when the up-and-coming rookie explodes for a career high in points and almost leads the worst team in the NBA to an upset of the league’s newest super-squad:

Did the Cavaliers make the right move when they made a three-way trade that swapped Andrew Wiggins for Kevin Love?

As much as Saturday’s pregame story was about Love’s first return to Minnesota since the trade and how the fans would receive him (for the record, there were boos, but even Love admitted with a smile afterward, “truth be told, I thought it was a pretty good reception”), after Wiggins dropped 33 points on 14-for-25 shooting and had the Wolves leading the Cavs by five early in the fourth quarter, the only postgame thought is: Did the Cavs give up on him too soon?

Before we attempt to answer the question, let’s establish some truths.

Truth 1: Cleveland is just fine how they are right now. Yes, the Cavs had a slow start, and yes, at 29-20, they only have the fifth-best record in the East, but their 106-90 win over Minnesota was their 10th straight. They got it on the road after finishing a brutal stretch of four games in five nights, and they still managed to hold the Wolves to 41.5 percent shooting as a team -- keeping up their standard as the No. 1 defense in the league in defensive field goal percentage over their past eight games.

Truth 2: Comparing Love’s stats this season to Wiggins’ stats this season doesn’t mean anything. Sure, that Wiggins is averaging 15.5 points, 4.2 rebounds and 1.1 steals per game while shooting a respectable 36.7 percent from 3 tends to appear more glass half-full than the glass half-empty 17.1 points, 10.4 rebounds and just 32.9 percent from 3 for Love. That's because Love’s numbers have all taken a considerable dip from the past season, when he was at 26.1 points, 12.5 rebounds and 37.6 percent from deep, but let’s consider context. First, every game Love is playing in matters. There is an incredible amount of scrutiny, and the opponent is almost always giving the Cavs its best shot (as Minnesota showed Saturday).

Meanwhile, the Wolves are a cellar-dweller, and wins are not expected. You have to know Wiggins’ numbers -- on a losing team in a league that’s only about winning -- don’t matter as much as the numbers Love put up, which were questioned, during his six postseason-less years with the Wolves.

Second, Love is playing with guys such asLeBron James and Kyrie Irving every night, while Wiggins teamed up Saturday with Lorenzo Brown, a guy on a 10-day contract who played all but five seconds in the game. Of course Wiggins is going to get the ball.

Although Wiggins said after the game, “I feel like this is the best spot for me” and “I feel like I’ve grown a lot more here than I would’ve there,” remember, he is talking about growing as a No. 1 option. Whereas Love has never been asked to be that for the Cavs, as coach David Blatt detailed before the game.

“I mean, he’s averaging a double-double,” Blatt said. “If you want to compare him to last year’s numbers, maybe there’s a difference, but that’s still pretty good production for anyone, anywhere. Obviously, he’s doing that in a team where there are other players with the same type of capability in one respect or another. So, I think what he’s doing is actually quite special, and I also think Kevin is being asked to do things here that maybe in the past he wasn’t asked to do because of the load on him offensively. And he’s really, really improved and embraced his defensive role on the team as well, and I see that as a big upgrade, perhaps, on his play from before, which was by all means outstanding.”

Truth 3: The Cavs’ championship window coincides with the peak of James’ prime. Yes, it’s feasible he could be an elite player for the next five or six years, but based on how his body has started to show signs he is human, a safer bet would be his being on the dominant level for the next three or four years.

Now that we’ve established the sky isn’t falling in Cleveland, that you have to throw out numbers when evaluating these guys and that time is of the essence, the argument really becomes about fit.

Wiggins, first of all, plays the same position as James. Although James is versatile enough to be slotted at a variety of spots on the floor, which makes that not as egregious an overlap as if Wiggins were paired with say, Carmelo Anthony, it is still something to consider.

Love, on the other hand, is a rebounding power forward who stretches the floor and is comfortable operating from the outside, thus opening up driving lanes for James and Irving while also taking a defender with him from the paint to the perimeter and giving those guys a better chance to finish in less traffic.

After the Wolves game, when Love still finished with 14 points, 17 rebounds and three assists, despite an off shooting night (1-for-5 from 3 and 1-for-4 from the foul line), James was asked if he “likes” Love’s game.

“I love it,” James said with a smile. “I just think his basketball I.Q., people don’t see that. The way he stretches the floor for us, his rebounding. His basketball I.Q. is really high, and it adds to our team. It adds to our team as far as everything -- knowing where guys are both offensively and defensively, and he’s been great.”

Blatt put it this way: “Look, at the end of the day no one wanted to see Andrew go. That was just a deal that was made with the idea of what we wanted our roster to look like and, with LeBron coming back, what we needed. Andrew Wiggins is already a fine, young basketball player, and he’s going to be a great player, as is Kevin Love, who we brought to the team to play the position and give us the skill set that we were lacking. I thought that was a good deal all around and one that really should have good feeling for everyone involved.”

Nobody is trying to say Wiggins won’t someday be a top-tier player in the NBA.

“He’s a great talent,” James said. “A great talent. I think he has a very, very good feel for the game. That’s good to see. He’s really calm. He played the game the right way tonight. He didn’t make many mistakes. I don’t know, as a rookie you expect that, but I think he’s grown each month in the season as far as a rookie. So they got a good piece.”

He’s shown that talent even more against the Cavs this season, averaging 30 points in the two meetings. That shows he has the internal engine to be great too, which is further evidence to support his destined success.

“It’s always a motivation game against Cleveland, especially when they have one of the all-time great in LeBron,” Wiggins said. “That’s motivation for me.”

James, in turn, drew motivation from Wiggins, as he scored 16 of his 36 points in the fourth quarter to seal the win. At one point, James scored 11 straight for the Cavs. He outscored Wiggins 16-2 and the entire Wolves’ team 16-11 in the fourth.

“It’s fun when you have great competition,” James said. “I remember when I was a rookie and I played against T-Mac [Tracy McGrady] on Christmas Day. And I played against Kobe [Bryant], I played against A.I. [Allen Iverson], and all those guys I was shadowing in the league at that time. I remember how I got up to play those guys, so I know what he was feeling.”

That feeling will always be there, so long as Love’s in Cleveland and Wiggins is in Minnesota.

“Will they be tied at the hip forever?” Wolves coach Flip Saunders asked. “Probably. That's part of what always happens when you go through any type of trade from that perspective.”

As difficult a transition it’s been for Love, he is still a player the Cavs believe they can rely on in pressure situations -- those two fourth-quarter benchings notwithstanding. It is easier for him to sacrifice numbers and touches and still be a contributor than it would be for Wiggins to try to grow as a player in that pressure-cooker environment.

Yes, Wiggins was spectacular Saturday, but don’t forget he was 1-for-5 in the fourth quarter, as the Wolves’ five-point fourth-quarter lead turned into a 16-point loss.

“You can see he’s going to continue to get better as time goes on, and being the focal point of their team right now, I know that they’re struggling, but he’s going to have a lot of opportunities to better his game this year and in the next few years as they grow and get better as a team,” Love said of Wiggins. “I think you saw it tonight a lot of flashes of what he can do, and he’s going to continue to get better.”

It is possible the answer to both questions -- “Will Wiggins be a great player?” and “Did the Cavs make the right trade?” -- is a resounding yes.

 

[Futuredome]

Love is shit with this setup. With Lebron, running the offense and Kyrie the main scoring guard, Wiggins would provide more schtick. Love imo, sets off the next "slump", betcha.

 

[Futuredome]

Here are some of the following differences...
1. Wiggins is 19
2. Wiggins has no high quality players around him especially tonight with like 6 of their players injured
3. Wiggins plays SG/SF he is not a big
4. Wiggins still had 4 steals
5. I value high FG % more than I do defensive rebounds
6. Most importantly he is a rookie

I'm not expecting Wiggins to literally be the next LeBron. When he starts to peak I wouldn't be surprised if he only averages 3-5 assists per game more similar to Melo. But shooting 64% for 33 points, give him credit where credit is due. I give Love credit for getting 6 offensive rebounds.

No one wants to admit the Love deal was a mistake. It cost so much, for so little in return. Imo, with Wiggins, we are by far the best team in the NBA. With Love, it is toss up every playoff series.

 

[Omar The Horse]

No one wants to admit the Love deal was a mistake. It cost so much, for so little in return. Imo, with Wiggins, we are by far the best team in the NBA. With Love, it is toss up every playoff series.

There it is ladies and gents..your hot sports take of the day brought to you by Mr. Hero. Come in today and try a 10" roman burger. Made especially fresh for you!

 

[MirORich]

Love is shit with this setup. With Lebron, running the offense and Kyrie the main scoring guard, Wiggins would provide more schtick. Love imo, sets off the next "slump", betcha.

You would describe Kevin Love's play and production to date as "shit"?

And you also think that this is all Love will ever do in his years here?

Seems a bit shortsighted of an outlook driven by a desire to show how "right" you were about a trade you were never on board with.

Also, while Wiggins may have elite defensive potential, he's not an elite NBA defender yet. Only history will show if he ever becomes one. If he was on our team, I would root for it. As he's not, I'm not all that concerned one way or the other. His stats playing next to LeBron and Kyrie would be nowhere close to where they are now.

No one wants to admit the Love deal was a mistake. It cost so much, for so little in return. Imo, with Wiggins, we are by far the best team in the NBA. With Love, it is toss up every playoff series.

The Cavs have won 10 in a row and haven't even come close to peaking offensively or defensively, yet IYO every playoff series is a "toss up"?

Cavs are going to end up as the 2nd or 3rd seed? You think a 7 game series with Milwaukee, Miami, or Charlotte is a toss up?

And as far as the Western Conference goes, we don't have to play them all. Just the one that makes the Finals.

 

[I'mWithDan]

Too many people are focusing on discussions about how good an individual player is in a vacuum vs. how good is he for THIS team. Those are two different arguments.

Is there a chance Wiggins could be better than Love? Sure. That still doesn't make the trade a loss.

One of the reasons we are such a good team is because we actually have capable front court players. Love helps provide far more balance to the roster.....even mired in one of the slowest starts of his career.

Again, it has only been what? 50 games? This team will ultimately be judged by how it does over the next 3 seasons. Love could get healthy, start averaging 20/10 on his career average shooting numbers and this will all go away....or maybe it couldn't, who knows.

Even if it is the latter, its a trade you make every time. A team trying to win now can't roll the dice on a 19 year old and hope he's ready to be the 3rd option on a title contender. We made a move that made the most sense when considering how we could maximize LeBron's prime...which is something everyone should be ok with.

 

[AZCavs]

Points seem to be the only thing that matters to some of you. Name a transcendent rookie that was on a team that had the worst record in the league.

I get he's a rookie and, yes, he's played very well, but his team is substantially worse after adding him and getting rid of the player who helped them obtain 40 wins a season ago.

"BUT BUT BUT HE HAS NO HELP"

Now either his stats have been some of the most empty stats we have ever seen from a rookie or Kevin Love is substantially better than some of you are giving credit for. But, yes, I'm sure Andrew Wiggins would have totally had a similar impact as he's having as the first option in Minnesota.

Nevermind the fact that Love had 17 fucking rebounds tonight. Look at how much Wiggins scored in a 15 point loss at home instead.

 

[Kizzle]

No one wants to admit the Love deal was a mistake. It cost so much, for so little in return. Imo, with Wiggins, we are by far the best team in the NBA. With Love, it is toss up every playoff series.

Basketball wise how would Wiggins be outplaying Love on this team? I just wanna see your opinion. He'd be fighting for minutes between Shumpert and Delly. I don't see him playing over Shumpert so idk. Well we'd probably play Lebron at the 4 so he'd probably play a lot of 3
Teams would probably ignore Wiggins past the 3 point line making it hard for Kyrie and Lebron to drive and despite popular belief wiggins defense isn't great against SFs or big SGs.

We wouldn't have a great big man either and I think on this team that's more important instead of adding another wing who probably wouldn't even play much

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

This trade was, and will always be, about adding a player that would best fit into the lineup now. The window of greatness for LeBron is about 4-5 years. Using a rookie, even a future star rookie, that will reduce that window while the team waits for him to develop championship level skills devalues LeBron significantly. Add in the fact that Wiggins played a position that the Cavs had covered much better than the front court and the trade needed to be made for the immediate benefit.

 

[LeShaq]

More from a triumphant The Bullshit Whisperer.

http://www.foxsports.com/ohio/story/lebron-cavs-come-through-in-winning-time-again-020115


Wiggins was traded to the Timberwolves in August. The Cavs received Kevin Love in return. That you know. Hopefully, you also know Wiggins really, really wants the Cavs to think they made a mistake. Well, here's a newsflash: They (didn't).

5. Wiggins had a wonderful game, scoring a career-high 33 points. He will be a fantastic pro. But Love scored the game's most back-breaking basket -- a rebound and putback late in the fourth. It was a winning play, and the Cavs want to win a lot and do it now. Wiggins, on the other hand, scored two points in the fourth quarter for a team with an 8-39 record.

6. That's not intended to trash Wiggins. But Love finished with 14 points and 17 rebounds. What he brings to the Cavs right NOW is way better than anything Wiggins could offer. You can disagree and you can talk about the future. And I will totally respect your right to be wrong.


Plenty more from Sam at the link.

 

[wremy]

Love is great for this team... those who don't understand that don't understand basketball

 

[PITCavsFan]

I think what some need to realize is when you trade for a guy like Kevin Love, you don't trade for his stats.

I would rather have the Kevin Love that puts up 18/10, gets in great rebounding position, spreads the floor, makes great passes, and wins games over the Kevin Love that puts up 26/13 and wins 40% of his games.