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Love/Wiggins Trade Revisited

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Frankly, gour, your points seem to be a lot of fury over minutiae.


I will give him this, he is going down with the ship. Gour, that is. And a good captain should go down with the ship.

But let's be clear about one thing here. As Michael Ray Richardson once said, the ship be sinking. Regardless of who is or is not remaining on that sinking ship.

The ship could still find its way back to smooth seas. I would not want to hold my breath waiting for that moment to occur, though.
 
Now, how do the Cavs lineups with Love stack up against other league top lineups?

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

For all NBA 5 man lineups which have played at least 100 minutes together in the 2014-15 season, the top Cavs lineup is second best in net rating behind only the Warriors best 5 man lineup.


Curry/Thompson/Iguodala/Green/Speights
+28.9 net rating (#1)

Irving/Marion/Lebron/Love/Thompson
+28.2 net rating (#2)

Irving/Smith/Lebron/Love/Mozgov
+21.9 net rating (#5 for 100+ minute lineups)


There are only three teams in the league who have a 5 man lineup that has played at least 100 minutes together this season which has a top 5 net rating. They are-

Warriors
Cavs
Spurs

None of this is relevant in the least with respect to Kevin Love vs Andrew Wiggins.

Love is a critical element to our having one of the best lineups in the NBA. He is part of each of our five best 5 man lineups, and his strong on/off court figure (+7.3) further points out his value on the court to the team.

You're not demonstrating causation with these statistics; you're just cherry-picking positive numbers (like On/Off per 100 possessions, as if this was the key indicator) and posting them.
 
Would I rather have Wiggins over Smith at the moment?

No.

Lol..... that's the most ridiculous comment I've heard in years posting on this board.

Wow.. we don't have much else to discuss if you'd rather have JR Smith to Andrew Wiggins.. why? Because VORP.

Jesus Christ almighty.
 
I'm sorry, lololol, wait a second... I think we should get a show of hands.

How many folks in this thread would turn down a trade, straight up, of the following...

Cleveland gives up JR Smith, and Minnesota gives us back Andrew Wiggins.

Who says no? LeShaq says no!

Anyone else?
 
Lol..... that's the most ridiculous comment I've heard in years posting on this board.

Wow.. we don't have much else to discuss if you'd rather have JR Smith to Andrew Wiggins..

Jesus Christ almighty.


That's ok, I've come to take pretty much anything you say with a grain of salt.

Let's turn it over to The Bullshit Whisperer. Sammy...

http://www.foxsports.com/ohio/story...lebron-james-andrew-wiggins-kevin-love-012915

16. Besides all that, if the Cavs had Wiggins instead of Love, I guarantee their record would be worse and they'd be getting destroyed on the boards way too often. I think Wiggins would average about 6 points per game on the current Cavs. Probably more in the future -- but right now, for this team, I'd rather have J.R. Smith. And it's not even close.

As I told you before, Gour, there is nothing you can tell me about posting on forums. You can try, but it will be to no avail. You simply aren't in a position to try to give me that kind of advice.

Similarly as regards basketball.

Or, likely, anything else.

But do what you must. Tilt at the windmills, and so on and so forth. It is entertaining.
 
You're not demonstrating causation with these statistics; you're just cherry-picking positive numbers (like On/Off per 100 possessions, as if this was the key indicator) and posting them.

I think those numbers do demonstrate the following idea: Kevin Love is so good at so many things, that his presence on the court is a key ingredient to the well-being of this team.

First and foremost, the spacing provided by Kevin Love is extremely valuable to the success of our offense. The fact that he's hitting threes at a higher clip makes our offense more potent, and he opens up driving lanes for Kyrie and LeBron. Love HAS to be respected, he can still take games over. This in turn opens up the game for LeBron and Kyrie to start the lay-up line and it increases the quality of shots for J.R., Iman, Delly, etc.

The counter-argument to that is "Why are we relegating Kevin Love, a max player, to being Channing Frye??!!??". While I do think we can use Love better and over time increase the diversity in which we get him shots, I still reject the "we can get the same thing for cheaper" argument for a few reasons.

1. Defense. Defensively, Love has shown that he is a willing, smart, and capable defender now that he isn't asked to be a rim protector or defensive anchor. He generally hustles, gets to the right spots, and has active hands. I'll never mistake him for an awesome defender, but he plays the game the right way on that end, at the very least.

2. Multi-faceted threat. While still not used completely right, Love is still a post threat and still a mid-range threat. He must be respected, unlike any random replacement "stretch 4" and he must always be gameplanned for.

3. Elite rebounding. Our rebounding clearly suffers when he's out/doesn't play. He finishes possessions, boxes out, and goes hard for rebounds. He doesn't "stat pad" very much with his rebounds. He earns it. At least that's how the results of my eye test worked out over time. He gives you way more on the glass than you would find from any average stretch-4.

4. Ball movement, starting the offense, passing. Stemming from his defensive rebounding, Love is one of the best tools we have to pushing the pace. I'm not even talking about his home-run passes full-court. Even when those aren't available, he is constantly looking to get the ball out to a ball handler as far up the court as possible. He hits those guys in stride and really makes it easier on the guys who have to bring the ball up the court by making them dribble a lot less than they would normally have to. It really helps start the offense. Once we are in the offense, he moves the ball really well. He makes the right passes, he runs the plays. At an elite level for a big-man. Not really a replaceable skill. His passing is very good for his size. He can create buckets for others. He actually feeds the bigs really well, go figure. We can also do a better job using his passing to our advantage.

Nonetheless, I think these are the main things to look at that show why Kevin Love's presence makes us so much more successful, and so much more likely to go far in the playoffs. I think it also helps justify the Wiggins trade as something that had to be done and has had a positive impact on our chances to win a championship while LBJ is still the best player in basketball.
 
That's ok, I've come to take pretty much anything you say with a grain of salt.

Let's turn it over to The Bullshit Whisperer. Sammy...

So your appeal to authority is to to the authority of Sam The Bullshit Whisperer?

What in the fuck?

"I think Wiggins would average about 6 points per game on the current Cavs. I'd rather have J.R. Smith. And it's not even close.

Ohh.. this is hilarious... lmfao!

As I told you before, Gour, there is nothing you can tell me about posting on forums.

Huh? What am I telling you "about posting on forums?"

You can try, but it will be to no avail. You simply aren't in a position to try to give me that kind of advice.

I'm not giving you any advice. What are you talking about??

Similarly as regards basketball.

You haven't said anything about basketball in any of your posts, that's what I'm trying to get across to you. You're just mindlessly plastering up cherry-picked stats without making any sensible argument that I can understand.

If you want to make a statistical argument, have at it hoss; but in so far as you've just embarrassed yourself and are now recoiling behind the coattails of the lazy mouthpiece Sam The Bullshit Whisperer, you've yet to try to assign any rationale to the values you claim justify your position.

Telling me a 19-year old has a slightly below average VORP and that JR Smith's is higher and therefore you'd rather have Smith under contract than Andrew Wiggins tells me you neither understand basketball or statistics.

But I think neither of us is any longer inclined to discuss it, so I'll leave it at that.

Or, likely, anything else.

Sure, pal....

But do what you must. Tilt at the windmills, and so on and so forth. It is entertaining.

I haven't "done" anything. You did all the talking for both of us when you killed yourself in your own opening argument.

Jesus.. you'd "rather have JR Smith than Andrew Wiggins and it isn't even close?"

Like I said, I've got nothing more to say... you are entitled to your opinion.
 
I think those numbers do demonstrate the following idea: Kevin Love is so good at so many things, that his presence on the court is a key ingredient to the well-being of this team.

Plus minus numbers do not show that. There exists too great a collinearity between Kevin Love's minutes and those of other successful players within a system that, as limited in it's dimension it might be, is enjoying success.

This is evidenced by the differences between his +/- figures pre/post trades (Mozgov/Smith/Shump); +2.4 vs +18.25?

So no, those numbers do not explain the story.

And before we go any further, understand, I'm not here to trash Love, or say he's a below average player.

I'm okay with the trade if Love stays a Cavalier and returns to some semblance of being an All-Star.

I think Kevin Love is a great NBA player, and a great power-forward. Overhyped, without a doubt, but he's still a great player. I do think he's contributing to this team's success as well. I just want to clarify a few statistical points, so that when folks say, see "Love is the best defender on the Cavs because plus/minus" we can hopefully add some context.
 
I think those numbers do demonstrate the following idea: Kevin Love is so good at so many things, that his presence on the court is a key ingredient to the well-being of this team.

First and foremost, the spacing provided by Kevin Love is extremely valuable to the success of our offense. The fact that he's hitting threes at a higher clip makes our offense more potent, and he opens up driving lanes for Kyrie and LeBron. Love HAS to be respected, he can still take games over. This in turn opens up the game for LeBron and Kyrie to start the lay-up line and it increases the quality of shots for J.R., Iman, Delly, etc.

The counter-argument to that is "Why are we relegating Kevin Love, a max player, to being Channing Frye??!!??". While I do think we can use Love better and over time increase the diversity in which we get him shots, I still reject the "we can get the same thing for cheaper" argument for a few reasons.

1. Defense. Defensively, Love has shown that he is a willing, smart, and capable defender now that he isn't asked to be a rim protector or defensive anchor. He generally hustles, gets to the right spots, and has active hands. I'll never mistake him for an awesome defender, but he plays the game the right way on that end, at the very least.

2. Multi-faceted threat. While still not used completely right, Love is still a post threat and still a mid-range threat. He must be respected, unlike any random replacement "stretch 4" and he must always be gameplanned for.

3. Elite rebounding. Our rebounding clearly suffers when he's out/doesn't play. He finishes possessions, boxes out, and goes hard for rebounds. He doesn't "stat pad" very much with his rebounds. He earns it. At least that's how the results of my eye test worked out over time. He gives you way more on the glass than you would find from any average stretch-4.

4. Ball movement, starting the offense, passing. Stemming from his defensive rebounding, Love is one of the best tools we have to pushing the pace. I'm not even talking about his home-run passes full-court. Even when those aren't available, he is constantly looking to get the ball out to a ball handler as far up the court as possible. He hits those guys in stride and really makes it easier on the guys who have to bring the ball up the court by making them dribble a lot less than they would normally have to. It really helps start the offense. Once we are in the offense, he moves the ball really well. He makes the right passes, he runs the plays. At an elite level for a big-man. Not really a replaceable skill. His passing is very good for his size. He can create buckets for others. He actually feeds the bigs really well, go figure. We can also do a better job using his passing to our advantage.

Nonetheless, I think these are the main things to look at that show why Kevin Love's presence makes us so much more successful, and so much more likely to go far in the playoffs. I think it also helps justify the Wiggins trade as something that had to be done and has had a positive impact on our chances to win a championship while LBJ is still the best player in basketball.

Now having read through this in it's entirety, I agree with everything you've said, except the first paragraph.

:chuckle:
 
Frankly, gour, your points seem to be a lot of fury over minutiae.

Ok... I don't know if I would describe my position as "furious" or the premises as minutiae, but alright.

Love isn't being used correctly? Sure, I agree that when LBJ or Irving are out they need to use more sets that Blatt drew up early in the year.

Ok.

Get a lot of screens off the ball, let Love pass out of the high post. But LeBron's power play and Irving's comfort level kind of nixed that set of plays. I hope that by next year LeBron sees the benefit of the diversification of our offensive sets.

I hope that by next year we have a coach that instill confidence in his players so that they'll do as he asks.

Is the Varejao contract a bad one? Well now that he blew out his tendon it is.

Not his first missed season.

But, he has a below the rim game anyway. I think he will be able to bounce back by the end of the 2016 season.

Umm...

Thompson's contract demands are very frustrating, but if the Cavaliers win it all this year, a lot of players will be happy to play on cheaper contracts to mesh with this core of players in the short term.

Our front-court, as "planned" in our strategy, projects to be one of the most expensive in the league - by far.

I don't think that's justifiable considering we're not a team that operates in the post.

But as I've said before, winning hides a lot.

Front court players of quality are never cheap. Kwame Brown retired a rich man and was never very good for Crissakes.

I know, that's why I wanted to go back and do an analysis of the total expenditure of the top NBA teams with respect to their PF/C 4-man rotations.

Cavs project to be more than 50% higher than average; again, that's for the best teams in the NBA.

It's all about making a run at multiple championships in a window. This is the window, starting this season.

I've got no problem with picking our battles. I just wish Kevin Love was more performant to justify the price tag.

Hence my frustration with David Blatt who seems inept when it comes to utilizing the post to keep opposing defenses honest.

So Love defense is still below perfect, Thompson is still limited, Griffin still reminds me of Frank Underwood's personality in Louie CK's body, and LeBron still shirks the wishes of coaches. And we are still in a great position to win a few championships and dominate the league in the next five years.

I'm cool with all of this except the Frank Underwood reference. I hope Griffin is more of a Seasons 1-2 Underwood and less of Season 3.
 
I'm sorry, lololol, wait a second... I think we should get a show of hands.

How many folks in this thread would turn down a trade, straight up, of the following...

Cleveland gives up JR Smith, and Minnesota gives us back Andrew Wiggins.

Who says no? LeShaq says no!

Anyone else?


Gouri, that's not fair. You're taking what he said out of context, and I think even you know you are. Of course nobody would make that trade, but there is an argument that for this season, this year, right now, with everything else thrown out, that Smith would be a better player for this team than Wiggins would be. I'm not even going to enter the debate, as I don't even know what my answer would be, but it's not like LeShaq is saying that Smith is and always will be better than anything Wiggins will ever be.
 
Gouri, that's not fair. You're taking what he said out of context, and I think even you know you are. Of course nobody would make that trade, but there is an argument that for this season, this year, right now, with everything else thrown out, that Smith would be a better player for this team than Wiggins would be. I'm not even going to enter the debate, as I don't even know what my answer would be, but it's not like LeShaq is saying that Smith is and always will be better than anything Wiggins will ever be.

I ask in all fairness, would anyone here turn down the trade of JR Smith for Andrew Wiggins?

See, when we remove all of the filler arguments and senseless back and forth, that's really the point isn't it?

Would you trade JR Smith's proven veteran talent for the potential that is the very raw Andrew Wiggins?

I don't think you would find a GM in the league that would turn that trade down, even during a championship-run.

But to say that contextually, JR Smith's present-day Cavaliers performance is of complete relevance, but Andrew Wiggins projected performance is not, doesn't make sense.

We're talking about a 19-year old rookie on a tanking team who has no help and we're using the box score on/off's and derivative stats thereof from a losing depleted team to justify having Smith on our team over Wiggins (who would be a 4th option on our team)?

So no, I'm not taking him out of context. You instead are offering him a lifeline to say "that isn't what I meant;" that's exactly what he meant.
 
There is an article on the ESPN site today comparing some advanced stat between
elfred Peyton and Wiggins-gist is that Wiggins is nothing special and Peyton is better.
 
There is an article on the ESPN site today comparing some advanced stat between
elfred Peyton and Wiggins-gist is that Wiggins is nothing special and Peyton is better.

Nothing special. Good thing I'm not dumb enough to pay for anything espn puts out.
 
I ask in all fairness, would anyone here turn down the trade of JR Smith for Andrew Wiggins?

See, when we remove all of the filler arguments and senseless back and forth, that's really the point isn't it?

Would you trade JR Smith's proven veteran talent for the potential that is the very raw Andrew Wiggins?

I don't think you would find a GM in the league that would turn that trade down, even during a championship-run.

But to say that contextually, JR Smith's present-day Cavaliers performance is of complete relevance, but Andrew Wiggins projected performance is not, doesn't make sense.

We're talking about a 19-year old rookie on a tanking team who has no help and we're using the box score on/off's and derivative stats thereof from a losing depleted team to justify having Smith on our team over Wiggins (who would be a 4th option on our team)?

So no, I'm not taking him out of context. You instead are offering him a lifeline to say "that isn't what I meant;" that's exactly what he meant.
He was just making a point that "right now" J.R. Smith is more valuable on this team than Andrew Wiggins would be "right now" for this team, as in this season. It's a point I agree with.

Just an observation, but most of your posts in these debates seem to be very rage-filled. It's fine if people don't agree with your opinions on Wiggins. Not everybody believes he's going to be a top 5 player. He's had some games where he shows a lot and others where he looks incredibly average to below average. It's arguable that he hasn't even looked like the best rookie recently with Noel, Payton, and Mirotic coming on. You can make your point, but no need to try to make fun of him and such.
 
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