Love/Wiggins Trade Revisited

[LeShaq]

Now let's come back to The Bullshit Whisperer's feelings regarding Smith vs Wiggins.

Wiggins had an excellent January, but has since seen his numbers trend downward. Here's how his PER figures look for the entire season and the past few months.

http://basketball.realgm.com/player.../2015/By_Season/Advanced_Stats/Regular_Season

Wiggins PER for the season = 13.0
.
Wiggins PER for January = 17.4
Wiggins PER for February = 13.6
Wiggins PER for March = 12.0

Just to remind people, the league average for PER is 15.0. The formula is apparently made so that the league average will always be 15.0. Thus, Wiggins is a below-average NBA player as measured by PER.

Now let's look at Smith.

http://basketball.realgm.com/player/JR-Smith/NBA/386/2015/By_Season/Advanced_Stats/Regular_Season

(You may have to go to the top of the page and click the right arrow to display the PER figure, which is to the right of the page)

Smith PER for the season = 13.7
Smith PER for the season = 14.7 (with Cavs)
.
Smith PER for January = 13.3
Smith PER for February = 16.8
Smith PER for March = 15.0


What we see here, then, is that Wiggins is coming down the stretch of the season currently playing below his own season-long PER as well as below the PER of the average NBA player. That doesn't necessarily sound like a guy who is going to be a meaningful piece on a potential championship contender.

Smith, on the other hand, is coming down the stretch of the season currently playing above his own season-long PER as well as playing at or above the PER level of an average NBA player.

Given that current evidence, I doubt Sam The Bullshit Whisperer would want to revise his statement regarding Smith, Wiggins and the best fit for the current Cavs.

 

[gourimoko]

I guess you're choosing not to respond to anything I said?

Fair enough..

Personally, I think it's strange that you continue to appeal to the authority of Sam The Bullshit Whisperer. Now you're even speaking for him.

I also don't understand why it is that you refuse to make a single basketball argument with respect to these stats you keep posting.

Again, none of this is in context. Wiggins is the primary option on a team with few threats, being guarded nightly by opposing teams best defenders and is often trapped or double-teamed when Rubio is off the floor.

JR Smith is a 3-pt specialist player who takes 62% of all his field goal attempts from behind the arc, and 84% of those shots are assisted.

Again, context. You said you've been a debater before. Okay, make an argument.

I again openly ask you, would you trade JR Smith right now for Andrew Wiggins? It's a yes or no question.

 

[Man Called X]

I guess you're choosing not to respond to anything I said?

Fair enough..

Personally, I think it's strange that you continue to appeal to the authority of Sam The Bullshit Whisperer. Now you're even speaking for him.

I also don't understand why it is that you refuse to make a single basketball argument with respect to these stats you keep posting.

Again, none of this is in context. Wiggins is the primary option on a team with few threats, being guarded nightly by opposing teams best defenders and is often trapped or double-teamed when Rubio is off the floor.

JR Smith is a 3-pt specialist player who takes 62% of all his field goal attempts from behind the arc, and 84% of those shots are assisted.

Again, context. You said you've been a debater before. Okay, make an argument.

I again openly ask you, would you trade JR Smith right now for Andrew Wiggins? It's a yes or no question.

I wouldn't. Shumpert makes Wiggins redundant.

<3

 

[gourimoko]

I wouldn't. Shumpert makes Wiggins redundant.

You're fucking lying...

<3

Indeed.. You'd do the trade then trade Wiggins for Embiid's hospital bill if you could. I know you better than that bro.

 

[Ohio]

This thread makes my head hurt

 

[Scholar]

I again openly ask you, would you trade JR Smith right now for Andrew Wiggins? It's a yes or no question.

That isn't the right question. The correct question is, "If you can only have one of those players for this seasons playoffs, and only this seasons playoffs, which one would you rather have?" What either player can do past this season is not relevant to the point he was making.

 

[Man Called X]

You're fucking lying...



Indeed.. You'd do the trade then trade Wiggins for Embiid's hospital bill if you could. I know you better than that bro.

I still wouldn't make the trade. I wasn't impressed with Wiggins in college. Am even less impressed with him in the pros. Give me JR Smith king of the gorilla balls all day long.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Serious question, why is thread in Cavs Talk?

 

[gourimoko]

That isn't the right question. The correct question is, "If you can only have one of those players for this seasons playoffs, and only this seasons playoffs, which one would you rather have?" What either player can do past this season is not relevant to the point he was making.

Scholar, respectfully, I disagree.

My argument is not and never has been that Andrew Wiggins is the better player today (compared to Kevin Love).

The argument is entirely about future potential, in future seasons.

That's why the question really is simply, would you trade JR Smith for Andrew Wiggins. Because to say "No" means you value Smith's contributions more than Wiggins both in the present and future tense; whereas to say "Yes," as every GM in the league would do (IMHO), means you believe, based on the evidence, that Wiggins is the better of the two players overall (again in present and future context).

It doesn't have to be anymore complicated than that. Would you trade JR Smith for Andrew Wiggins?

 

[Man Called X]

Scholar, respectfully, I disagree.

My argument is not and never has been that Andrew Wiggins is the better player today (compared to Kevin Love).

The argument is entirely about future potential, in future seasons.

That's why the question really is simply, would you trade JR Smith for Andrew Wiggins. Because to say "No" means you value Smith's contributions more than Wiggins both in the present and future tense; whereas to say "Yes," as every GM in the league would do (IMHO), means you believe, based on the evidence, that Wiggins is the better of the two players overall (again in present and future context).

It doesn't have to be anymore complicated than that. Would you trade JR Smith for Andrew Wiggins?

Trades in the NBA aren't made in a pure vacuum. Not every variable will undoubtedly be the same for all parties involved. And you keep taking tomorrow for granted. That it's just going to be there. That all things considered, we'll be perennial title contenders. All major players will stay relatively healthy etc.

Of course you trade JR smith for Wiggins in a pure 1 for 1 swap. That's a given. But that has not and never will be the crux of the argument for or against trading Wiggins.

Potential vs known production. I know tomorrow isn't promised. So I always trade away potential for proven talent.

In the case of would I trade Smith for Wiggins, and the answer is still a no. Cavs need an irrational confidence type player that can get hot at any time. Wiggins certainly isn't going to be doing that. Smith does.

I get it, you hated the Love trade. But you still make the move every day of the week. Who knows, LeBron might get out of bed wrong and tear his achilles. Shit is becoming more and more common recently. Then what? We've got Kyrie and the potential of Wiggins, oh yeah, and the awesomeness that is Anthony Bennett.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

Ahh classic @Cashius X coming to give me disagrees and old ratings for all my posts without actually explaining why like he's done countless times to me in the past 3 weeks…

And regarding this debate, I honestly believe Wiggins would play like a better scoring Iman Shumpert if he was on this team this year. It seems like people don't get that Wiggins' role would be dramatically reduced if he was on this team (much like Kevin Love - but most likely to an even lower level) especially considering that he would be a guard playing between two very ball dominant players in Kyrie and Lebron. Wiggins would be forced to play much like Shump. At least with Love, he's far and away our best scoring threat down low, so he's still putting up almost 17 a game.

I just think there would very little room for Wiggins to shine on this Cavs team, which is why I believe the Love-Wiggins trade was a win-win for both sides (my only regret is that we added the Miami pick).

 

[All4One1ForAll]

Trades in the NBA aren't made in a pure vacuum. Not every variable will undoubtedly be the same for all parties involved. And you keep taking tomorrow for granted. That it's just going to be there. That all things considered, we'll be perennial title contenders. All major players will stay relatively healthy etc.

Of course you trade JR smith for Wiggins in a pure 1 for 1 swap. That's a given. But that has not and never will be the crux of the argument for or against trading Wiggins.

Potential vs known production. I know tomorrow isn't promised. So I always trade away potential for proven talent.

In the case of would I trade Smith for Wiggins, and the answer is still a no. Cavs need an irrational confidence type player that can get hot at any time. Wiggins certainly isn't going to be doing that. Smith does.

I get it, you hated the Love trade. But you still make the move every day of the week. Who knows, LeBron might get out of bed wrong and tear his achilles. Shit is becoming more and more common recently. Then what? We've got Kyrie and the potential of Wiggins, oh yeah, and the awesomeness that is Anthony Bennett.

What ever even happened to him? He's faded into complete obscurity lol. I expected that he would at least show some semblance of the talent that got him drafted so high, especially following some decent Summer League performances.

 

[Otsego Mar]

"Kevin missed a few shots in the paint and didn't play in the 4th I want Wiggins back"

- Delusional bi-polar 4th year Cavs fans.

 

[gourimoko]

Trades in the NBA aren't made in a pure vacuum. Not every variable will undoubtedly be the same for all parties involved. And you keep taking tomorrow for granted. That it's just going to be there. That all things considered, we'll be perennial title contenders. All major players will stay relatively healthy etc.

Has nothing to do with what I'm arguing.

Of course you trade JR smith for Wiggins in a pure 1 for 1 swap. That's a given.

That's all I'm asking...

 

[wuck]

Serious question, why is thread in Cavs Talk?

Because people wanted to talk about this, and it doesn't go in the Love thread or the Wiggins thread.

We don't have an "old trades" forum, so it's here for now. At some point during the off-season, I guess it will move to "Around the NBA".