Matthew Dellavedova

[Lee]

Nate, your tone was condescending before I got in on this post, and just out condescended you. Going forward, it might be time to take it back a notch. It clearly wasn't working for you.

As for Lee's post, I will continue to believe Dellavedova ends up a part of the regular rotation. He might get less minutes in certain situations next season, but that can be said for everyone on the roster. The Cavaliers had a very real depth issue last year. Delly was 6th on the team in total minutes played, despite missing a few weeks with an injury. In the playoffs, the Cavaliers should have never been in a position where they only had one active point guard. Those problems shouldn't be present in year two of contending. I just don't believe you need to trash Dellavedova in the process of aquiring adequate depth.

I believe he will end up around 8th or so in minutes. If the Cavaliers didn't have souch dead weight at the end of the bench, Dellavedova wouldn't be perceived as getting too many minutes.

I think he ends up maybe the same in minutes unless the Haywood trade brings something unexpected.

I see JR might not get resigned and I think Delly might end up being our bench sg and emergency pg.

We need a backup pg, but we also need to keep Delly. One thing he proved is he has intangibles that are hard to find in role players, I just want to limit his role a bit more to off the ball. I think you will find the front office and coaching staff end up agreeing with me too. They watch the same games I watched.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Do you disagree that switching perimeter screens will take him out of the majority of plays?

When Dellavedova was in for Kyrie, Blatt called the "horns set" exclusively. I don't know how much you get into Xs and Os, but it's a flexible set used by pro coaches like Carlisle, Coach K and Izzo run it extensively in college ball as well. It has starting action from the point guard and double high screens from the big men, with shooters in the corners. With Delly, he could be a corner shooter or run it as a point guard, which keeps the defense off balance. Delly admittedly isn't very strong with a high pick and roll, but he was successful with other plays like the post cross - often getting TT or Moz a dunk. He also found open players on the money for side-entry plays, leading to open threes or a big rolling to the basket. I just believe there are more sets out there, ones that Gentry and Kerr were drawing up that got guards setting screens for each other with forwards finding them off screens. I want to see more of that for both Kyrie and Delly next year.

I am approaching this conversation from the perspective of how Delly would do on a team without our talent. He was conservative all year and for the life of me I can't remember any great passes he made or scoring opportunities that he created other than PnR and the lob. In an off ball screen offense, players need to quickly decide whether to go inside or the perimeter and I do not see him displaying that ability.

Delly played on a team without talent as a rookie. He had his ups and downs, but he got better as the year progressed. I think he is much better now than he was back then. Nobody here says you build a bad team around Delly. It would look like Orlando's first expansion season with poor Scott Skiles and a slew of castoffs. I do think Dellavedova can be a fourth guard, and I'm hoping that third guard has a diverse talent set that includes dribble penetration to compliment Delly.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

You are totally misunderstanding the conversation. Keys and I had a discussion where he said Delly is one of the best 3 and D players in the league under 6'5. I built a list of players under 6'5 and arbitrarily chose WS/48 because it generally puts players in order so I could facilitate a discussion on where Keys thinks Delly really belongs in the league. Choose any stat. I don't care.

But you chose that particularly stat, and you said that it generally puts guys in the right order impact-wise. I'm going off what you said about the stat you chose to use.

And you still haven't explained why it isn't reasonable to use that stat to say that Delly should be a first guard off the bench.

Hell, forget what you said about that stat. Just pretend I was the first one to use it. And tell me why Delly ranking 73rd in winshares/48 among guards doesn't support the conclusion that he's basically a third guard type of player, rather than an end of the bench guy?

I used +/- to say we were better with him off the court than on. Do you disagree with that? I'm not dismissing anything and you haven't disproven anything.

What was the relevancy of the stat, if not to support your argument that Delly was not a rotational player, but rather belongs on the end of the bench"?

Pointing out that a guy is a net negative doesn't remotely mean he shouldn't be a top-8 rotational guy, because all 8th guys (PriceFTW posted this) have a negative rating.

Moreover, when I asked you for a guy you'd want, you identified Kent Bazemore, whose team is much worse when he is on the floor. So it at least seems that you only care about a negative plus minus when you think it bolsters your argument, but dismiss it when it doesn't.

 

[I LOVE YOU ABBY]

Every time I mosey on over into this thread, I see Randolph's name at the bottom. He's like an alligator waiting to attack. Only instead of lurking in the shallow waters waiting for some thirsty antelope..he's waiting on some poor, defense-and-energy-underappreciating sports fan to snap his intellectually sharp teeth on.

Fellas, you might wanna toss a stone in these waters before jumping in.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I do think Dellavedova can be a fourth guard, and I'm hoping that third guard has a diverse talent set that includes dribble penetration to compliment Delly.

Right now, aren't either JR or Shump our third guard? Neither one of them offers much in the way of dribble penetration, at least to me.

So...exactly what are you saying? That you think Shump/JR really do offer good dribble penetration, that we should ditch one of them and replace them with someone who does, or does that mean Delly should be moved to the 5th guard/end of bench?

 

[Randolphkeys]

@Dog - funny, but I keep getting asked questions in posts. So, I'm willing to respond. I had more time on my hands than usual this morning.

@The Human Q-Tip I don't know what the rotation will be in the playoffs in 2016, it's too early to tell. But, the lack of depth last season was a problem before players were injured. I think we will see less moments where Love, LeBron or Kyrie are playing through injuries on a regular season road trip if they get another quality perimeter player.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

@Dog - funny, but I keep getting asked questions in posts. So, I'm willing to respond. I had more time on my hands than usual this morning.

@The Human Q-Tip I don't know what the rotation will be in the playoffs in 2016, it's too early to tell. But, the lack of depth last season was a problem before players were injured. I think we will see less moment's where Love or Kyrie are playing through injuries on a road trip if they get another quality perimeter player.

I guess my question is what kind/caliber of a player are you envisioning given that we already have 4 guards in KI, Shump/JR/Delly? You mentioned this new guy being the third guard, which would bump down either shump/Jr and Delly. But I don't see how we get someone like that given our current situation. Although maybe that's the kind of thing the Cavs are working on behind the scenes with the Haywood contract, and why they may let JR walk.

Although to be honest, I don't see us having a need for another penetrator in the normal rotation, simply because we already have two who are exceptional. What I think we need -- and what we lacked when KI went down -- is a 3rd PG who can provide some of that if Kyrie goes out again. And that would be more of an MMLE guy we'd add to the roster, rather than a Haywood contract guy who'd replace JR.

 

[NasstyNate]

When Dellavedova was in for Kyrie, Blatt called the "horns set" exclusively. I don't know how much you get into Xs and Os, but it's a flexible set used by pro coaches like Carlisle, Coach K and Izzo run it extensively in college ball as well. It has starting action from the point guard and double high screens from the big men, with shooters in the corners. With Delly, he could be a corner shooter or run it as a point guard, which keeps the defense off balance. Delly admittedly isn't very strong with a high pick and roll, but he was successful with other plays like the post cross - often getting TT or Moz a dunk. He also found open players on the money for side-entry plays, leading to open threes or a big rolling to the basket. I just believe there are more sets out there, ones that Gentry and Kerr were drawing up that got guards setting screens for each other with forwards finding them off screens. I want to see more of that for both Kyrie and Delly next year.

I'm very familiar with horns and most plays in basketball, though of course different teams have different terminology. I thought Delly played best in our weave action into the PnR this year, where he would usually set up TT for the lob or find JR in the corner.

Delly played on a team without talent as a rookie. He had his ups and downs, but he got better as the year progressed. I think he is much better now than he was back then. Nobody here says you build a bad team around Delly. It would look like Orlando's first expansion season with poor Scott Skiles and a slew of castoffs. I do think Dellavedova can be a fourth guard, and I'm hoping that third guard has a diverse talent set that includes dribble penetration to compliment Delly.

Totally agree.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Q Tip - I think you get the most high-end talent that you can and worry about too much talent later. Shumpert and Smith were both de facto backup small forwards after arriving. The problem is Shumpert is even worse creating out of a pick and roll than Delly, and Smith is better finishing sets with his ISO play. The team will never complain about too much talent on the bench, not after running out of healthy bodies this past season.

 

[NasstyNate]

Hell, forget what you said about that stat. Just pretend I was the first one to use it. And tell me why Delly ranking 73rd in winshares/48 among guards doesn't support the conclusion that he's basically a third guard type of player, rather than an end of the bench guy?

This is the last time I am going to address this topic. Delly plays within a system of incredible offensive talent and significantly upgraded defensive talent after the trade. Numbers do not come from a vacuum, and his numbers are significantly inflated due to the talent around him on this particular team. That does not mean that he is necessarily a bad player. But it does mean that, in my opinion, those numbers would be significantly worse on a lesser team. Put Bazemore in the same situation and I think he performs as well or better.

What was the relevancy of the stat, if not to support your argument that Delly was not a rotational player, but rather belongs on the end of the bench"?

Pointing out that a guy is a net negative doesn't remotely mean he shouldn't be a top-8 rotational guy, because all 8th guys (PriceFTW posted this) have a negative rating.

Moreover, when I asked you for a guy you'd want, you identified Kent Bazemore, whose team is much worse when he is on the floor. So it at least seems that you only care about a negative plus minus when you think it bolsters your argument, but dismiss it when it doesn't.

Again, I gave his +/- to show that we are better with him off the floor than on. That's it. Nothing about me providing those statistics was related to saying he is an end of the bench player. Re-read what I wrote.

@Randolphkeys Did my post where I laid out my points in bullet format get deleted?

 

[Randolphkeys]

I have made these points:

• We do not need a "traditional" PG backing up Kyrie because he is already the backup behind Lebron
  
• Delly is a SG on this team and has an elevated 3pt % because of it. He is decent in that role, but replaceable. Bazemore would be better on this team
  
• Using A/TO numbers to say he is a good PG falls apart when you look at his role on offense
  
• Delly is not a "traditional" PG in the sense of dribbling and creating for others
• PGs that are unable to dribble and create are end of bench players around the league
  
• Delly on other teams that do not have the talent that we do is an end of the bench guy if he were to play the PG position because he cannot dribble and create
• Delly would fall apart as a combo guard on teams with lesser talent

Here is Nate's bullet point manifesto. The part above it requires the post to be removed.

On the subject of Dellavedova being successful in certain actions, yes he was strong in the weave as well. Really, the 800 pound gorilla in the room nobody is talking about is LeBron dismissing plays where he isn't used in one of his two or three preferred ways. If the Cavaliers let Love facilitate like Kerr lets Draymond and Iggy take turns facilitating for Curry, Delly's off ball talents would be more pronounced. But, LeBron loves his pick and roll and elbow ISO plays...

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I just have to say I'm still confused by Nate's argument. He says Delly isn't a traditional PG. But he also says that this team doesn't need a traditional PG.

So then why the hell can't Delly be the non-traditional backup PG for a team that uses non-traditional PG's?

 

[Randolphkeys]

I just have to say I'm still confused by Nate's argument. He says Delly isn't a traditional PG. But he also says that this team doesn't need a traditional PG.

So then why the hell can't Delly be the non-traditional backup PG for a team that uses non-traditional PG's?

I'm holding back with all my will power, Q. All my will power... I am just confident Delly will be back and answer these critiques with his play. I really do struggle to think of active elite point guard defenders who achieved more than Delly in the playoffs. It was a performance for the ages before he spent the night in the hospital. Even afterward, he was very good defensively, Curry was just better.

 

[Scar4343]

I'm holding back with all my will power, Q. All my will power... I am just confident Delly will be back and answer these critiques with his play. I really do struggle to think of active elite point guard defenders who achieved more than Delly in the playoffs. It was a performance for the ages before he spent the night in the hospital. Even afterward, he was very good defensively, Curry was just better.

I took up for the guy all year last year as well when it was fashionable to kick him down. I suppose, after he re-signs here, I'll be doing the same this year. You'd think he would've convinced folks by now but I guess not. I think he's the perfect backup PG for Kyrie Irving as he still provides shooting when Kyrie is out and is elite at the 1 thing Kyrie isn't elite at, defense.

I think people struggle with the concept of role players. Delly is excellent as the backup PG picking up 10-15 mpg behind Kyrie. He is NOT a starting PG in this league and he never will be. There's nothing wrong with that. Lots of guys have had long, successful careers as specialized backups. Hell, Robert Horry won like 150 rings with most of his career being as a specialized backup PF.

My favorite stat to demonstrate the value of these types of role players is that from 1994 to 2003 either Steve Kerr or Robert Horry was on whoever won the championship that year. The Pistons screwed that up in 2003-04 (Kerr should've went to backup Billups rather than retire). Robert Horry then won two more ring in 2005 and 2007. So, from 1994 to 2007 one of those two role players were on 11 out of 13 champions.

Role players matter.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I'm holding back with all my will power, Q. All my will power... I am just confident Delly will be back and answer these critiques with his play. I really do struggle to think of active elite point guard defenders who achieved more than Delly in the playoffs. It was a performance for the ages before he spent the night in the hospital. Even afterward, he was very good defensively, Curry was just better.

Nobody slowed Curry down the entire season until that undrafted Auzzie in the Finals. And to top it off, he's only in his second season and has shown strong, steady improvement since entering the league.

And I just can't fathom this over-emphasis on dribble penetration. Yes, it's certainly a desired quality in a point guard, like being able to shoot from the outside, being able to run an offense, or being able to guard your position. But cripe, it shouldn't be a dealbreaker if your backup isn't good at penetration if he gives you other things as well.

I just picture Delly on San Antonio. Would Pop keep him glued to the end of the bench? He'd love tossing him out there for a change of pace.