Seattle Seahawks @ Cleveland Browns (1:00PM - CBS)

[Pavlovic3Ball]

I don't know what happened to Colt but last year all I remember saying was, "Wow, what a pass, helluva arm!".
I feel bad because we've all witnessed this kids potential. He CAN do it. He just isn't. I think he's going to be one of those guys who's light switch flips later on in their career. Now is not his time.

While he did look a lot better last season, there was never a time I could remember him having a "helluva arm". On the bright side, Colt has a 99 rating in the intagibles department.

 

[Shakalu M.D.]

Lots of QBs have flash in the pan performances early in their career. What determines their NFL capabilities is how they adapt once the league figures them out. The league has figured out that Colt folds under pressure, how has he handled it? He runs around and panics even when there isn't pressure in his face and he makes stupid decisions and inaccurate throws.

 

[billmac91]

Tom Brady has a weak arm? Lol. Maybe the dumbest statement ever posted on RCF.

Tom Brady most certainly does not have a "cannon" as someone else alluded too. Brady is much more Joe Montana than he is John Elway or Dan Marino. Brady's accuracy is pin-point and he probably has the best touch of any QB in the NFL. Here is his scouting report from the combine BTW:

Notes: Baseball catcher and football quarterback in high school who was drafted by the Montreal Expos in the 18th round of the June 1995 baseball draft. Opted for football and redshirted at Michigan in '95. Saw limited action in '96 and '97 and started the past two years. Completed 3 of 5 passes for 26 yards, no touchdowns and one interception in '96, 12-15-103-0-0 in '97, 214-350-2,636-15-12 in '98 and 180-295-2,216-16-6 in '99, when he often shared time with super sophomore Drew Henson. Went all the way against Alabama in the Orange Bowl and completed 34-46-369-4. Unlike many Michigan quarterbacks, Brady is a pocket-type passer who plays best in a dropback-type system.

Tom Brady Positives: Good height to see the field. Very poised and composed. Smart and alert. Can read coverages. Good accuracy and touch. Produces in big spots and in big games. Has some Brian Griese in him and is a gamer. Generally plays within himself. Team leader.

Negatives: Poor build. Very skinny and narrow. Ended the '99 season weighing 195 pounds and still looks like a rail at 211. Looks a little frail and lacks great physical stature and strength. Can get pushed down more easily than you'd like. Lacks mobility and ability to avoid the rush. Lacks a really strong arm. Can't drive the ball down the field and does not throw a really tight spiral. System-type player who can get exposed if he must ad-lib and do things on his own.

Summary: Is not what you're looking for in terms of physical stature, strength, arm strength and mobility, but he has the intangibles and production and showed great Griese-like improvement as a senior. Could make it in the right system but will not be for everyone.

When assessing Tom Brady's strengths, arm-strength certainly isn't at the top of list. Neither is it for a guy like Drew Brees. Those guys have every intangible you could ever want in a QB though which is what separates them..

Here are comments from Tom Brady's personal trainer and QB coach since he was 13.

Quarterback guru: It’s all mechanics

Tom Martinez is to the NFL what Hank Haney is to the PGA Tour. Martinez is the man behind the man.

Long before Tom Brady was a household name, dating a string of models known by just their first name, Martinez taught the Patriots’ quarterback how to throw the ball.
Brady was just 13 years old and far removed from the glamour boy of the NFL that he is today, when Martinez eyed him at a summer camp. The eventual three-time Super Bowl champ has had Martinez on speed dial ever since.
After just a handful of minutes with the teenage Brady, Martinez, one of the most successful junior college coaches of all time, had him pegged as a star.
“Brady is great because he is still striving for perfection,” Martinez said. “He is the ultimate team quarterback, whatever it takes to win. He’s not a stats or a ‘me’ type of guy.”
Rather, he’s a “perfect-mechanics” type of guy.
From the drop to the delivery, Brady is exactly what all NFL quarterbacks should look like in the pocket. Martinez admits his other prized pupil, JaMarcus Russell, has more talent, but Brady is just so sound. It’s something many scouts failed to see when he slipped to the sixth round in the 2000 NFL draft. Still, a lot of scouts haven’t learned their lesson from that draft.
“Too much is made of arm strength and athleticism,” Martinez said. “I can make you a stronger passer.
“Brady, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger and Drew Brees have won the last six Super Bowls. And they are all pocket passers with average feet outside the pocket. I doubt their combine results were impressive.”
Martinez cautions NFL teams this year to bypass numbers and focus on a quarterback’s innate mechanics. Does he have enough distance in his stance? Does he have a quick release? Does he have a proper release point?
“Numbers are overrated,” he said.
Martinez’s skill set is not. And Brady finally found out a way to repay his longtime friend and coach.
“I’m the advice guy on technique and he seeks my advice,” Martinez said. “I seek his advice on women as he is the expert in that category.”

Being able to throw a good deep ball is much more than a strong arm. Brady can air it out, but in terms of throwing a 25 yard out or to the sticks, he isn't rocket armed by any means. He's accurate and has perfect mechanics. The use of his feet is also out of this world. In fact, you'd probably call me crazy for saying Tom Brady is the most mobile QB in the NFL, but I think he is. The guy slides in the pocket better than any QB in the NFL's history. And any perceived arm-strength he has actually comes from his feet and ability to drive his body into throws. It was hyperbole on my part to call him "weak-armed" when it's actually an average arm. Christian Ponder, Matt Cassell, Andy Dalton all have "weaker" arms. However, there's a very long list of NFL starters with better pure arms than Brady. There's a very short list of QB's with the intangibles he has. All it takes is a quick viewing of the videos below to understand what separates him from the rest:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=1015837n

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEksRqde8mM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUGj5qQFnnc&feature=related

Also video of Brady airing it out 65 yards. It was about as far as he could throw it, IMO. He launches from the 15 and hits Randy at the 20 yard line. 65 yards isn't exactly ground-breaking at the NFL. I also enjoy Troy Aikman stating it was a 75 yard throw when basic math proves otherwise.

 

[billmac91]

Originally Posted by Talm

Most of the best passing teams have WRs drafted in the 2nd round or later at WR:
Mike Wallace 3rd round
Wes Welker undrafted
Greg Jennings 2nd round
Brandon Marshall 4th round
Marques Colston 7th round
Stevie Johnson 7th round
Sidney Rice 2nd round
DeSean Jackson 2nd round
Miles Austin undrafted

to name a few. Great QBs make great receivers, it generally doesn't work the other way around. Fitzgerald is arguably the most talented wide receiver in the NFL, but when Derek Anderson was his QB, he was hardly a factor. I'm not ready to write Colt of either, but, at worst, he has an average supporting cast around him. I'd much rather work with what the Browns have than the Bills, but somehow Fitzpatrick is getting things done. You could also make a case for the weaknesses in Brees' targets... none has elite size or speed except for Meachem, and he's a headcase. They make tons of plays with the likes of Colston, Sproles and Moore, all of whom have glaring weaknesses. Jimmy Graham is a great talent, and is utilized often, but without him they'd still have Drew Brees.

I should have put "rookie" second round receiver. I was disgusted the FO didn't bring a veteran WR in to displace MoMass as our #1. Little has the potential to be good, but I was very skeptical of a guy who didn't play last year, and was actually used quite a bit as a RB at UNC as well. Nothing about him said instant impact player and that frustrated me a lot when our returning weapons at WR were Brian Robiskie and Mohammed Massaqoui. Not exactly Jerry Rice and John Taylor. Hell, I think you could make a legitimate case that we had the weakest starting WR core in the NFL to begin the season. Our #3 WR entering the season is an out-of-shape return specialist, who also lacks significant time at the WR position. How is that putting a young QB in a position to succeed? It bothered me then and bothers me now.

I agree with this premise, though I think Colt has looked worse than I had expected (hoped). The troubling thing is, he's getting worse on a game-by-game basis. That strikes me as a mental issue, and may not be something he snaps out of. Hopefully he gains some confidence after this win and starts to turn it back around.

Colt had Mangini last year who loved the power run game. Peyton Hillis did so much damage last year he forced defenses to respect him. I think that helped Colt a ton. I have no issues with Shurmur implementing the WCO, but so far our run game has been terrible and we're behind the sticks all day long. 3rd and long is a miserable place to be for any NFL QB. I know Hardesty had 95 yards on 33 carries, but he was really bottled up a lot. Colt was staring at tons of 2nd and 9's all day. He then completes a 3 yard pass and it's 3rd and six....it's just really ugly football right now. I know he's missed deep a few times, but I'm not seeing the coaches trying to push the ball downfield much at all either. It's easy to say Colt is missing the throws deep, but when you look at the routes his supposed play-makers are running, I don't think it's in the gameplan with exception to once or twice a game.

People forget Brady had a noodle arm coming out of college. However, Brady had a frame to build on, and physically matured late. I don't think we'll be as lucky with Colt. I don't think Brady's arm strength is a big question mark anymore. He might not have Manning's cannon, but it's close enough. We're also going to be a WCO team, and if Colt can't adapt, he's not our guy.

Yup. I addressed this in another post. Just b/c he puts up crazy stats and can throw a 65 yard Hail Mary doesn't make him one of the strongest arms in the NFL. Intangibles, intangibles, intangibles. Colt has a lot of winning characteristics, IMO. Brady has even more physical gifts than Colt, but I think Colt can be good. It's just the margin of error is much less for a guy like Colt McCoy than a guy like Cam Newton. Even Christian Ponder played pretty well today....a lot of rookie mistakes but he has shown he has enough tools to be successful in the NFL. I went to Florida State, and McCoy has a stronger arm than Christian. Christian also brings that leadership GM's are looking for. I think both Christian and Colt put excellent touch on the ball when they're "on". It likely helps Ponder a lot that he will be playing in a dome. But even more helpful is a legit running back behind him. It really makes such a huge difference.

I don't think throwing to receivers 5 yards down field is going to do much to stretch a defense. Like it or not, Little and Massaqoui are good enough to get NFL caliber separation. McCoy is often throwing his passes before his WRs running intermediate routes even make a cut, which means he's panicking. There are a lot of holes, including playcalling, and we don't have a Superbowl caliber offense by any stretch of the imagination. We do, however, have the weapons necessary to put up 20-some odd points on passing defenses as terrible as the Seahawks are. Especially with Trufant out. The only reason it didn't get done in this game rests squarely on McCoy. He has to get better.

I haven't seen enough of MoMass going vertical to know if he is capable or not. Brady Quinn threw a terrible deep ball and always checked down as well. Derek Anderson had a strong arm but never built any chemistry. Last year, the Delhomme experiment was an absolute joke. I'm still not sure what we have in him. And again, when watching the games on TV, I'm not seeing us look to push the ball downfield much. I see drag routes and crosses all day long and an occasional deep throw that we rarely connect on. But there isn't a focus on pushing the ball downfield. Maybe that is Shurmur's lack of confidence in Colt or maybe I'm not seeing the whole field on TV. I also think a strong run game would really help Colt find himself in all aspects of quarter-backing. It'd be great to see Peyton Hillis bring his lunch-pail sometime soon and keep defenses honest.

 

[Pavlovic3Ball]

Billmac, Brady is one of the best quarterbacks in the league when it comes to throwing 25-30 yards darts down the field. And please name some of the quarterbacks that have a better "pure arm" than Brady.

 

[Noonan]

Can't say I disagree with Peter King:

I think if I'm the Browns, I'm having serious questions about Montario Hardesty's ability to be the every-down running back. A win's a win, and Cleveland somehow beat Seattle in a slugfest, 6-3. But Hardesty (33 carries, 95 yards) was a plodder more than a runner Sunday, and had 20 carries of two yards or fewer. I wonder when was the last time a runner has rushed 20 times in a game, basically, ineffectively. At one point in the first half, here were Hardesty's rushes in succession: 1, minus-1, 1, 2, minus-1, two. I'm thinking the Browns should kiss and make up with Peyton Hillis.

​

 

[The Oi]

I still see some potential in Hardesty. Wasn't Seattle coming in as the best run defense in the league? I think someone needs to talk to him about which move he chooses to use and whether he should just cut back instead of using that move all the time i.e. spin move. But he comes out of the backfield with a lot of speed and falls forward.

Not saying he's AP or Arian Foster by any stretch, but he might still be a good RB. I'd like to see him against some average defenses.

 

[Pavlovic3Ball]

Can't say I disagree with Peter King:

​

Hillis has been getting demolished at the LOS all season. People are forgetting Seattle has a great run defense. I don't think he would have made a difference. Hillis hasn't looked good all season except for the one run he had against the Colts. And even in that game he left a ton of yards on the field. Plus he can't even play a down without hurting something. At least with Hardesty we know he is going to be able to play.

 

[Noonan]

I still see some potential in Hardesty. Wasn't Seattle coming in as the best run defense in the league? I think someone needs to talk to him about which move he chooses to use and whether he should just cut back instead of using that move all the time i.e. spin move. But he comes out of the backfield with a lot of speed and falls forward.

Not saying he's AP or Arian Foster by any stretch, but he might still be a good RB. I'd like to see him against some average defenses.

I was watching Red Zone yesterday and basically they cut to the Browns game three times: twice Hardesty used that spin move when it didn't look necessary. Dude looked like a ballerina. And then they cut to the run in the fourth quarter where he got suplexed WWE style by that safety. Not sure I've ever seen a RB get blown up like that in the open field. Good lord.

Not sure what to think of Hardesty. But yer right about Seattle's run D. Plus with our shitty pass game we aren't giving the RBs much of a chance.

 

[RealKingofCleve]

If you give Hillis 33 carries yesterday, I guarantee he gets over 100 yards. When he gets back, I hope they keep their focus on running the football, because that is the best strategy for this team.

 

[Pavlovic3Ball]

If you give Hillis 33 carries yesterday, I guarantee he gets over 100 yards. When he gets back, I hope they keep their focus on running the football, because that is the best strategy for this team.

Hillis really hasn't done anything this season to make me think he would have done any better. While Hardesty got stuffed a lot, a few of his runs he made something out of nothing. Hillis doesn't have that ability at all. And his vision hasn't really been any better. While he is definitely a superior pass-catcher, the new RB more than made up for it by getting some key passes. Im not saying we don't need Hillis, but we are 2-0 without him. So in the meantime he can take all the time he needs icing his sprained labia.

 

[billmac91]

Billmac, Brady is one of the best quarterbacks in the league when it comes to throwing 25-30 yards darts down the field. And please name some of the quarterbacks that have a better "pure arm" than Brady.

I think you're missing the point. I'm not saying Brady isn't one of the best at throwing a 25 yard out. Because he is one of the best. But in terms of pure arm strength, he isn't even close to elite. But Brady has amazing feet and mechanics and is probably the most accurate thrower in the NFL.

To answer your question, all of the guys below, I would say have better pure arms. I'm talking about ability to throw straight line rockets with zip. Keep in mind, a strong arm doesn't make a good quarterback. Jeff George had one of the best arms ever, and he was average to below average. Hell, I'd say based on pure arm-strength, Brady may not even have the tsrongest arm on his own team. Ryan Mallet has a huge arm. I sure as hell wouldn't start Mallett over Brady though. Anyways, to name some guys who have better arm strength, I'd say:

Mike Vick
Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning
Cam Newton
Kyle Boller
Jay Cutler
Matt Ryan
Ben Roethlisberger
Matt Schaub
Matthew Stafford
Byron Leftwich
Josh Freeman

I even listed some back-ups in there (Boller and Leftwich).

Just b/c I think those players have bigger arms doesn't make Brady any less of a QB. If I'm starting a team, Tom Brady is the guy I want. But his success is about being an overall passer (footwork, ability to read defenses, leadership, finesse/touch) rather than arm strength. His arm strength isn't anything to write home about.

 

[Pavlovic3Ball]

Brady has a better arm than Manning, Schaub, and most definitely Matt Ryan. The rest I agree with. I get what you are saying, I just think Brady is underrated in the arm strength department. He is a lot better than people give him credit for.

 

[billmac91]

I still see some potential in Hardesty. Wasn't Seattle coming in as the best run defense in the league? I think someone needs to talk to him about which move he chooses to use and whether he should just cut back instead of using that move all the time i.e. spin move. But he comes out of the backfield with a lot of speed and falls forward.

Not saying he's AP or Arian Foster by any stretch, but he might still be a good RB. I'd like to see him against some average defenses.

My biggest red flag with Hardesty is that he doesn't fall forward on contact. It's a major issue. Even on his run where he got to the second level, the safety absolutely blew him up. A legitimate 215 pound running back in the NFL does not get Vader power-bombed in the open field while running hard. And it was far from only that play. The guy gets tackled horizontally all the time. If he fell forward on just 20 of his 33 runs yesterday, he's looking at another 15-20 yards of rushing.

Maybe he's still working back from knee surgery? I'm not sure. But he runs without any power behind his pads which is a terrible thing in the NFL. If you're going to be a finesse runner (Reggie Bush, Jamaal Charles, Chris Johnson) you better have elite speed and lateral agility which he doesn't have either. I'm just not sure he has the ability to be an every-down back in the NFL.

I think if Hillis gets those touches yesterday, you're looking at least 120 yards, b/c Hillis isn't getting knocked backwards on first contact. It'd be great to see Hillis get/want 33 carries in a game. Unfortunately, until he gets a new contract, I don't think he wants the ball.

 

[CPK]

I think if Hillis gets those touches yesterday, you're looking at least 120 yards, b/c Hillis isn't getting knocked backwards on first contact. It'd be great to see Hillis get/want 33 carries in a game. Unfortunately, until he gets a new contract, I don't think he wants the ball.

He's going to want that ball in his hands as much as possible if he wants a good payout from us or anyone in FA.