Star Wars: The Force Awakens teaser #2

[col63onel]

there are many who use the dark side and light side interchangeably and without fear of becoming consumed by either.

Like...

 

[gourimoko]

Like...

It's already been said in the thread; Jolee Bindo is one.

 

[col63onel]

It's already been said in the thread; Jolee Bindo is one.

You have 2 this thread, both are from a video game that has a "hook" of "play for the Light or Dark side", so they have to make the Dark side seem more reasonable.

 

[gourimoko]

You have 2 this thread, both are from a video game that has a "hook" of "play for the Light or Dark side", so they have to make the Dark side seem more reasonable.

Does this mean that, essentially, it doesn't count in your eyes? The Revan and Exile arcs are by far the most popular EU stories of them all, and both are considered canon.

I mean, you do realize these games are canon, right? Just as the cartoons for kids are canon and the books you can buy at the grocery store are canon too. One isn't more canon than the other. If you reject the Revan/Exile arc then what's the point in discussing the EU? And if we discount the EU, then we should only talk about the movies.

Lastly, it's important to note that Lucas himself worked with the Revan and Bane arcs for the Clone Wars show... I dunno why you'd question the source on this one considering it's from the most well-liked arc.

But if you want yet another example, Qui-Gon Ginn is referenced as a "grey" Jedi more often than not. Of course you might argue that Qui-Gon never used any dark side powers, I'd agree, but the point is that he did use the Force to his own advantage and for his own purposes, against the wisdom of the council. That arrogance and selfishness is what caused Anakin to be trained in the first place. It's the exact same decision point used to create the arcs of Darth Revan and the Exile.

 

[col63onel]

Does this mean that, essentially, it doesn't count in your eyes? The Revan and Exile arcs are by far the most popular EU stories of them all, and both are considered.

I mean, you do realize these games are canon, right? Just as the cartoons for kids are canon and the books you can buy at the grocery store are canon too.

Lastly, that Lucas himself worked with the Revan and Bane arcs for the Clone Wars show... I dunno why you'd question the source on this one considering it's from the most well-liked arc.

I am not seeing where "many" come into play. There are few "canonical" sources, where this occurs. And I'd argue that the only reason they were created was that it helps make the video games they were in have replay value. Because the games were done well, they have gained a stronger foothold in the EU.

I don't think their existence means that the Dark side is inherently "without evil". If you want to argue that there is more nuance than just "Light side = good/ Dark side = bad", I'd definitely agree with you. But historically, dark side users are far more prone to acts of atrocity than light side users and light side users are far more prone to acts of protection than dark side users. If the dark side weren't inherently evil, then you'd have more stories of light side users enslaving populations and committing mass genocide.

 

[Pioneer10]

Hard to reconcile Lucas saying the dark side is not evil when every movie description of them.is well evil. The empiror darth vador darth sidious do bad acts and are drawn visually as evil. I mean darth vador kills a bunch of kids for heavens sake

Lucas idea of taosim would be interesting but Star Wars in movie terms is pretty vacous in terms of philosophy and is certainly filmed as good vs evil. Game of thrones it isnt

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[Jack Brickman]

Does this mean that, essentially, it doesn't count in your eyes? The Revan and Exile arcs are by far the most popular EU stories of them all, and both are considered canon.

They might be considered canon, but it's hard to argue that the only reason they present the dark side as they do is so that the games can conform to BioWare's standard game model where the player can choose to be a goody two shoes or a total dick but still ultimately save the day. BioWare has literally been using this same model for every game they've made for like the past two decades.

 

[gourimoko]

I am not seeing where "many" come into play. There are few "canonical" sources, where this occurs.

There are many, but honestly it seems pointless to discuss if only your personal preference determines what is canon and what isn't...

And I'd argue that the only reason they were created was that it helps make the video games they were in have replay value. Because the games were done well, they have gained a stronger foothold in the EU.

I don't think this really matters. It seems a very opinionated way to discount a large portions of the Star Wars story that you might not enjoy as much or be less familiar with.

Again, you might not like it, but the Revan and Exile arcs dominate the EU more than anything else, including Bane. To just dismiss it out of hand is weird. It also ignores the fact that these characters are mentioned in several EU books including Bane's "Path of Destruction" - if that's more your speed.

I don't think their existence means that the Dark side is inherently "without evil".

Again, I think you misunderstand. It isn't that the dark or light sides of the Force are good or evil; but that there is only One Force, and the light and dark aspects are just perceptional.

If you want to argue that there is more nuance than just "Light side = good/ Dark side = bad", I'd definitely agree with you.

It's that that dichotomy is completely wrong. Light side is not good nor is the dark side bad - at all. It is a matter of how they are used.

But historically, dark side users are far more prone to acts of atrocity than light side users and light side users are far more prone to acts of protection than dark side users. If the dark side weren't inherently evil, then you'd have more stories of light side users enslaving populations and committing mass genocide.

If you go back and read what I've said here, or just go through the EU, you'll understand why this is clearly the case.

The Dark Side of the Force is about passion, power, and strength; the Light Side of the Force is about tranquility, humility, and patience. None of those virtues are evil.

But why do dark side users so often kill and commit atrocities more so than light side users?

Because light side powers and feats are generally restorative and defensive; dark side powers are generally destructive and offensive. Again, neither of these are necessarily or inherently evil.

War is sometimes a necessity. We just marked the 70th anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Both massively destructive and offensive acts; but depending upon your point of view they could be considered either good or evil. The truth of the matter may not actually exist - as there may not be a universal truth at all.

You cannot defensively commit mass genocide - but you can allow genocide through inaction.

We saw the Jews nearly wiped out while Western powers failed to act; or the genocides in Africa and Eastern Europe. But I don't think many would consider America evil for not taking offensive action. However, going back to the points made in the Revan arc, the Jedi's refusal to act allowed the preventable deaths "hundreds of billions" of people. Is this evil? To Revan and the Republic it certainly was. But it was entirely within the light side of the Force.

For Revan, going to war, and wielding the Force as an instrument of war was not only for the greater good, but for his own individual moral good and ethical compass. He had the power to prevent innocents from dying, yet it was not his mandate and he was ordered not to do so. He used to the dark side of the Force to save countless lives by destroying the Mandolarians.

But that power, the near-absolute power he used through the Force, ultimately corrupted him; just as the light side of the Force had blinded the Jedi Council of their responsibility to their fellow sentients on numerous occasions.

So yes, Revan became "evil" from a naive point of view. But not because of the dark side of the Force, but instead, because of his inability to control himself. He became corrupted by the power he had, not the tools he used.

 

[spydy13]

Surprised you nerds didn't already post these.

Here's the poster for Ep VII:

Here's a cast photo for Rogue One:

And Ep IX is being directed by none other than Jurassic World director, Colin Trevarrow:

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2015/08/...pisode-9? hub page (front page)&utm_content=6

 

[gourimoko]

Hard to reconcile Lucas saying the dark side is not evil when every movie description of them.is well evil. The empiror darth vador darth sidious do bad acts and are drawn visually as evil. I mean darth vador kills a bunch of kids for heavens sake

Lucas idea of taosim would be interesting but Star Wars in movie terms is pretty vacous in terms of philosophy and is certainly filmed as good vs evil. Game of thrones it isnt

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This is so that most people can know who the bad guys are. The characters go out of their way, through exposition, to explain the nuance.

Yes, they depict "evil" but again, if moral relativism is true, then what is evil?

p.s.
With the whole "younglings" thing.. I get it.. but again, when we firebombed Dresden or Tokyo, a lot more kids died. You might say those things are evil, but you definitely would not have a consensus one way or another. I think that's the point.

 

[gourimoko]

Surprised you nerds didn't already post these.

Here's the poster for Ep VII:

Weird... There's three suns in that image; wonder if that's supposed to mean something.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Weird... There's three suns in that image; wonder if that's supposed to mean something.

They're going to the planet from Pitch Black?

 

[gourimoko]

They might be considered canon, but it's hard to argue that the only reason they present the dark side as they do is so that the games can conform to BioWare's standard game model where the player can choose to be a goody two shoes or a total dick but still ultimately save the day. BioWare has literally been using this same model for every game they've made for like the past two decades.

I'm not really referencing the game directly, but the canon that came about as a result of the game.

Beyond that, (1) BioWare didn't make KOTOR II which is where most of this played out; (2) See @howler1313 's post above regarding the Exile arc; (3) these arcs were later adapted into novels; (4) it's the most cited/liked/referenced canon of the EU.

And.. again.. in context, the dark side is not evil in the Prequels. The people who use it often use it to their own ends and become twisted because of their own corruption. But.. again.. it's a nuanced point.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I'm not really referencing the game directly, but the canon that came about as a result of the game.

Beyond that, (1) BioWare didn't make KOTOR II which is where most of this played out; (2) See @howler1313 's post above regarding the Exile arc; (3) these arcs were later adapted into novels; (4) it's the most cited/liked/referenced canon of the EU.

And.. again.. in context, the dark side is not evil in the Prequels. The people who use it often use it to their own ends and become twisted because of their own corruption. But.. again.. it's a nuanced point.

BioWare didn't make KOTOR II, sure, but the game is a direct sequel and has essentially the same gameplay mechanics. It's similar to how Bethesda made Fallout 3 and Obsidian (who made KOTOR II) made New Vegas, but New Vegas is clearly a sequel as well. Neither of those Obsidian games attempts to reinvent the wheel, although ironically both are generally considered better (albeit buggier) than the originals. Regardless, the point is that KOTOR II plays exactly like a BioWare game.

I really need to re-play KOTOR II, by the way. Such a great game, and the PC port is so much more playable than the first game.

 

[Pioneer10]

This is so that most people can know who the bad guys are. The characters go out of their way, through exposition, to explain the nuance.

Yes, they depict "evil" but again, if moral relativism is true, then what is evil?

To each their own but I dont see anything out their way at least in the movies that is very nuanced. Darth Vader is in service to an Empiror who makes weapon of mass destruction that literally destoys an entire world of people while Ben essentially sacrifices himself so Luke can survive. This isnt exactly subtle attempts at tagging actions as good vs others that are bad

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