Star Wars: The Force Awakens teaser #2

[Jack Brickman]

I'm pretty sure they stated it was non-cannon solely for the purposes of reusing the stories without people already knowing the outcomes. It gave them carte blanche license to retcon the shit out of the EU, recycling the stories, without hearing fans scream about their Star Wars continuity being fucked with.

Essentially, all of that stuff doesn't exist -- until we use it in a movie.

Can you imagine being a writer for a new Star Wars movie and having to deal with the EU being canon? You'd literally have to read every single EU novel, comic, etc. to ensure you're not screwing anything up. We're talking decades worth of shit heaped up (that's not a slight on the quality of the EU content, some of which is really good) that only the most die hard Star Wars fan can probably keep track of. I used to be a huge Star Wars fan before the prequels kind of sucked that joy out of me, but even I only read a fraction of the EU novels available.

It just made sense from a logical perspective to not make them canon, even though it kind of sucks that some great novels aren't recognized. Of course, it probably would have been more insulting to pick and choose which ones were.

I agree, though, that they'll almost undoubtedly use some of the good ideas from the EU in the new trilogy, and they should. I just hope the writers of those novels they pull from get some credit.

 

[theSwayze]

Exactly.

He brings balance to the Force by wiping out the Jedi and essentially destroying the Sith (including himself).

He is the Chosen One, and the Jedi simply "misread" the prophesy, thinking that balance meant a golden age of Jedi, rather than a true balance between light and dark.

The idea was based on the Taoist belief of Dynamic Balance and Cyclical Change.

The Chosen One would stop the cycle of change (for a time), and bring peace through balance.

While I haven't read all the EU stuff by any means I've got a different take. "Balance" as it's used in the POTC (yeah thats right, initialisms) is super vague and never well defined- and that seems pretty much by design. I see bringing Balance to the Force as the removal of the Sith corruption to the neutrality of the Force. The Force is an aspect of nature that certain individuals over thousands of years learned to perceive an interact with. Then some nasty people figured out how to weaponize it. The Prophesy is nature returning itself to balance.
It's a Jedi legend about the Force returning itself to what is was before it was tainted by ancient dark Jedi who nudged the Force away from it's natural harmony. Anakin is the one who returns balance to the force by killing Palpatine and in so doing killing himself- No more Sith, no more imbalance and the Force returns to harmony and impartiality.

 

[gourimoko]

While I haven't read all the EU stuff by any means I've got a different take. "Balance" as it's used in the POTC (yeah thats right, initialisms) is super vague and never well defined- and that seems pretty much by design. I see bringing Balance to the Force as the removal of the Sith corruption to the neutrality of the Force. The Force is an aspect of nature that certain individuals over thousands of years learned to perceive an interact with. Then some nasty people figured out how to weaponize it. The Prophesy is nature returning itself to balance.
It's a Jedi legend about the Force returning itself to what is was before it was tainted by ancient dark Jedi who nudged the Force away from it's natural harmony. Anakin is the one who returns balance to the force by killing Palpatine and in so doing killing himself- No more Sith, no more imbalance and the Force returns to harmony and impartiality.

There is a defined history about all of this. In fact, there is so much written about "the prophesy" that we really do not have to guess really about any of it.

The story behind the Force is that it is a potential "life-force" that resides in all living beings. The Rakata race learned to harness this force and simply called it "The Force." They used the power of the Force to create a massive military armada. This fleet allowed them to expand, eventually conquering the entire galaxy and establishing The Infinite Empire. They enslaved all species they came in contact with.

This is how all the species in the galaxy came to know the Force.

Once the Infinite Empire fell (for various reasons), each species was left to study the Force on their own, and they developed different schools of thought over time as how to best utilize it.

Anyway.. that's the very abridged history of the Force according to the EU.

But the Force is actually based on Taoism and the ying and yang according to Lucas. Watching his Behind the Scenes commentary, you can see Lucas also incorporated imagery and concepts of Zoroastrianism.

Concisely, understanding the dark/light side duality is similar to understanding Taoism's yin and yang concepts and Zoroastrianism's "dark vs light" narrative.

However, contrary to Zoroastrianism but very much in congruence with Taoism; neither side of the force is actually "evil," and you hear Lucas say this himself. The dark side of the force is not and does not represent evil because true evil doesn't really exist in Star Wars.

What matters are the choices you make and how you choose to use the power that you have. That's the entire point of Star Wars in general. Lucas is continually faced with choices.

In Episode IV, we see this throughout the film, deliberately:

1) do you fight and avenge your aunt and uncle or do you disappear into the desert;
2) do you help the Princess or do you find the nearest spaceport;
3) do you take up Han on his offer and leave with your reward, or do you forgo the reward and fight alongside the Rebel Alliance;
4) do you choose to embrace technology as you did earlier in the movie - or do you finally choose to "let go" and embrace the Force?

In Episode V and VI the choices become more grave and Luke is introduced to the dark side of the Force, but again, those movies are filled with Luke being faced with decision after decision requiring his affirmation to one choice or a diametrically opposed alternative.

Lastly, according to Lucas himself, the prophesy simply means all the Jedi and the Sith are gone. That would represent balance. The Jedi themselves are an imbalance; just as the Sith are an imbalance. This is alluded to when Yoda tells Mace Windu and Obi-Wan that he suspected they misunderstood and "misread" the prophesy. That perhaps "The One Who Would Bring Balance to the Force", does not mean the one who would kill just the Sith...

 

[DCunleaded]

I am a huge SW fan; however, I missed the boat completely on the SW books. I think they just became too widespread for me to take on, and I lost interest. That said, I thought JJ Abrams wasn't going to be using the books as reference.

I'm really trying to avoid spoilers, but then I get dragged in like some kind of meth fiend.

I do echo the general sentiments on here about Kylo Ren's transformation, as well as Rey's character; in fact, the Ren/Rey is a subtle hint as well. Add to that, how similar Daisy Ridley's screen shots from TFA are to Natalie Portman. Just spitballing....

Anyone watching the SW Rebels show on Disney? I have been watching them with my 5yo son/7yo daughter; they are pretty decent, and seem to fill in some of the gap between III and IV. They are huge SW fans already, and have pleaded with me to all wear nerd costumes when we see the movie as a family.

 

[col63onel]

However, contrary to Zoroastrianism but very much in congruence with Taoism; neither side of the force is actually "evil," and you hear Lucas say this himself. The dark side of the force is not and does not represent evil because true evil doesn't really exist in Star Wars.

This sounds a lot like the Potentium, which I don't think is widely accepted.

 

[gourimoko]

This sounds a lot like the Potentium, which I don't think is widely accepted.

Not actually referring to the Potentium; but the nature of the Force itself in the EU.

According to George Lucas, morality is entirely relative in Star Wars - there is no true good or true evil. This is mentioned by Lucas himself, by Anakin Skywalker, and by Senator Palpatine. Outside of the movie itself Rick McCallum and Hayden Christensen have referenced this as well. Lucas has said that while the Jedi consider the Sith evil, that the reverse is also true, and that the Sith consider the Jedi to be evil. Neither of them would think they are deliberately doing evil deeds for the sake of it.

This theme is throughout much of the EU where the dark side users are portrayed as not necessary good or evil but simply people who choose to wield the force to do their bidding. Their ends may or may not be just, but the act itself could still use the dark side of the force.

 

[MD13]

There is a defined history about all of this. In fact, there is so much written about "the prophesy" that we really do not have to guess really about any of it.

The story behind the Force is that it is a potential "life-force" that resides in all living beings. The Rakata race learned to harness this force and simply called it "The Force." They used the power of the Force to create a massive military armada. This fleet allowed them to expand, eventually conquering the entire galaxy and establishing The Infinite Empire. They enslaved all species they came in contact with.

This is how all the species in the galaxy came to know the Force.

Once the Infinite Empire fell (for various reasons), each species was left to study the Force on their own, and they developed different schools of thought over time as how to best utilize it.

Anyway.. that's the very abridged history of the Force according to the EU.

But the Force is actually based on Taoism and the ying and yang according to Lucas. Watching his Behind the Scenes commentary, you can see Lucas also incorporated imagery and concepts of Zoroastrianism.

Concisely, understanding the dark/light side duality is similar to understanding Taoism's yin and yang concepts and Zoroastrianism's "dark vs light" narrative.

However, contrary to Zoroastrianism but very much in congruence with Taoism; neither side of the force is actually "evil," and you hear Lucas say this himself. The dark side of the force is not and does not represent evil because true evil doesn't really exist in Star Wars.

What matters are the choices you make and how you choose to use the power that you have. That's the entire point of Star Wars in general. Lucas is continually faced with choices.

In Episode IV, we see this throughout the film, deliberately:

1) do you fight and avenge your aunt and uncle or do you disappear into the desert;
2) do you help the Princess or do you find the nearest spaceport;
3) do you take up Han on his offer and leave with your reward, or do you forgo the reward and fight alongside the Rebel Alliance;
4) do you choose to embrace technology as you did earlier in the movie - or do you finally choose to "let go" and embrace the Force?

In Episode V and VI the choices become more grave and Luke is introduced to the dark side of the Force, but again, those movies are filled with Luke being faced with decision after decision requiring his affirmation to one choice or a diametrically opposed alternative.

Lastly, according to Lucas himself, the prophesy simply means all the Jedi and the Sith are gone. That would represent balance. The Jedi themselves are an imbalance; just as the Sith are an imbalance. This is alluded to when Yoda tells Mace Windu and Obi-Wan that he suspected they misunderstood and "misread" the prophesy. That perhaps "The One Who Would Bring Balance to the Force", does not mean the one who would kill just the Sith...

Ever play Kotor 2 gour? I feel like they had the best approach to the duality of the force in any medium (Chris Avellone is a genius).

 

[theSwayze]

There is a defined history about all of this. In fact, there is so much written about "the prophesy" that we really do not have to guess really about any of it.

The story behind the Force is that it is a potential "life-force" that resides in all living beings. The Rakata race learned to harness this force and simply called it "The Force." They used the power of the Force to create a massive military armada. This fleet allowed them to expand, eventually conquering the entire galaxy and establishing The Infinite Empire. They enslaved all species they came in contact with.

This is how all the species in the galaxy came to know the Force.

Once the Infinite Empire fell (for various reasons), each species was left to study the Force on their own, and they developed different schools of thought over time as how to best utilize it.

Anyway.. that's the very abridged history of the Force according to the EU.

But the Force is actually based on Taoism and the ying and yang according to Lucas. Watching his Behind the Scenes commentary, you can see Lucas also incorporated imagery and concepts of Zoroastrianism.

Concisely, understanding the dark/light side duality is similar to understanding Taoism's yin and yang concepts and Zoroastrianism's "dark vs light" narrative.

However, contrary to Zoroastrianism but very much in congruence with Taoism; neither side of the force is actually "evil," and you hear Lucas say this himself. The dark side of the force is not and does not represent evil because true evil doesn't really exist in Star Wars.

What matters are the choices you make and how you choose to use the power that you have. That's the entire point of Star Wars in general. Lucas is continually faced with choices.

In Episode IV, we see this throughout the film, deliberately:

1) do you fight and avenge your aunt and uncle or do you disappear into the desert;
2) do you help the Princess or do you find the nearest spaceport;
3) do you take up Han on his offer and leave with your reward, or do you forgo the reward and fight alongside the Rebel Alliance;
4) do you choose to embrace technology as you did earlier in the movie - or do you finally choose to "let go" and embrace the Force?

In Episode V and VI the choices become more grave and Luke is introduced to the dark side of the Force, but again, those movies are filled with Luke being faced with decision after decision requiring his affirmation to one choice or a diametrically opposed alternative.

Lastly, according to Lucas himself, the prophesy simply means all the Jedi and the Sith are gone. That would represent balance. The Jedi themselves are an imbalance; just as the Sith are an imbalance. This is alluded to when Yoda tells Mace Windu and Obi-Wan that he suspected they misunderstood and "misread" the prophesy. That perhaps "The One Who Would Bring Balance to the Force", does not mean the one who would kill just the Sith...

Well I guess know what I'll be reading up on until 4am, thanks!. I've always known the depth was there but never got any deeper into EU than that series with Thrawn(sp?).

 

[Jack Brickman]

Not actually referring to the Potentium; but the nature of the Force itself in the EU.

According to George Lucas, morality is entirely relative in Star Wars - there is no true good or true evil. This is mentioned by Lucas himself, by Anakin Skywalker, and by Senator Palpatine. Outside of the movie itself Rick McCallum and Hayden Christensen have referenced this as well. Lucas has said that while the Jedi consider the Sith evil, that the reverse is also true, and that the Sith consider the Jedi to be evil. Neither of them would think they are deliberately doing evil deeds for the sake of it.

This theme is throughout much of the EU where the dark side users are portrayed as not necessary good or evil but simply people who choose to wield the force to do their bidding. Their ends may or may not be just, but the act itself could still use the dark side of the force.

And yet the Emperor himself was written in such a way that he absolutely delighted in doing evil things for no other reason than because he was really fucking evil, at least in the prequels.

I don't buy for a minute that the Emperor thinks he's some sort of hero. I think he just doesn't give a fuck that he's evil as shit. He revels in it.

 

[gourimoko]

And yet the Emperor himself was written in such a way that he absolutely delighted in doing evil things for no other reason than because he was really fucking evil, at least in the prequels.

I don't buy for a minute that the Emperor thinks he's some sort of hero. I think he just doesn't give a fuck that he's evil as shit. He revels in it.

I dunno about doing evil things for no reason... Can't think of anything that comes to mind... but it's been awhile since I've seen the prequels.

 

[gourimoko]

Ever play Kotor 2 gour? I feel like they had the best approach to the duality of the force in any medium (Chris Avellone is a genius).

I have, and you're right, they explain the Force in detail...

Jolee Bindo and Kreia (at certain moments) are both examples of Jedi who go between both light and dark, and they never do anything that they think is inherently evil.

Even though Darth Treya attempts to cut off all life from the Force, her intention is so that humanity is severed from the yolk of destiny; essentially, her intentions are that people's free will should not be influenced by the will of the Force. That doesn't make her evil.

 

[MD13]

I have, and you're right, they explain the Force in detail...

Jolee Bindo and Kreia (at certain moments) are both examples of Jedi who go between both light and dark, and they never do anything that they think is inherently evil.

Even though Darth Treya attempts to cut off all life from the Force, her intention is so that humanity is severed from the yolk of destiny; essentially, her intentions are that people's free will should not be influenced by the will of the Force. That doesn't make her evil.

I loved how they'd always make it a point in the game (mostly through Kreia's dialogue) the faults for both inherently good/evil acts. Classic example is when you have the option of helping out a beggar or not, and Kreia will scold you no matter what you choose. I loved the anti-ideological tone that the game encouraged you to take as someone whose moral code doesn't align with either the Sith or Jedi.

Now that I think about it, they also took a very Torment-ish approach to the game where other like-minded people are drawn to the PC's suffering. Awesome, awesome story, and story-wise at least was a better game for me than Kotor 1. I'd also go so far as to say it holds its own against any story in the Star Wars continuum, and I did read a lot of the books for a long time.

 

[col63onel]

Not actually referring to the Potentium; but the nature of the Force itself in the EU.

According to George Lucas, morality is entirely relative in Star Wars - there is no true good or true evil. This is mentioned by Lucas himself, by Anakin Skywalker, and by Senator Palpatine. Outside of the movie itself Rick McCallum and Hayden Christensen have referenced this as well. Lucas has said that while the Jedi consider the Sith evil, that the reverse is also true, and that the Sith consider the Jedi to be evil. Neither of them would think they are deliberately doing evil deeds for the sake of it.

This theme is throughout much of the EU where the dark side users are portrayed as not necessary good or evil but simply people who choose to wield the force to do their bidding. Their ends may or may not be just, but the act itself could still use the dark side of the force.

And Luke started to kinda adhere to this during the NJO series and even the Dark Nest trilogy, but went back to the "good vs evil" line of thought after Jacen Solo.

Lucas has said a lot of contradictory things. There may be some record of him saying this, but I don't think any Star Wars canon backs this up. The Dark Side has evil in it. It's why people who practice it "fell" and those who came back were "redeemed".

 

[Coyote850]

And yet the Emperor himself was written in such a way that he absolutely delighted in doing evil things for no other reason than because he was really fucking evil, at least in the prequels.

I don't buy for a minute that the Emperor thinks he's some sort of hero. I think he just doesn't give a fuck that he's evil as shit. He revels in it.

The Emperor craves power. He wants to control the galaxy. And he's arrogant enough to believe that he is smart and powerful enough to control the galaxy. I agree that the Old Jedi Order died. It died with Old Ben and Yoda. Luke (and Leia) are the first of the New Order. We'll find out if Leia ever embraced the Jedi way. Luke obviously did, but the question is how successful was he in establishing the New Order.
The Force Awakens will be fun to watch, and very emotional for a person like me that grew up with Star Wars and never in a million years expected to see the old gang together again. I'll have to see the movie at least 3-4 times to be able to really catch all the little details.

 

[gourimoko]

And Luke started to kinda adhere to this during the NJO series and even the Dark Nest trilogy, but went back to the "good vs evil" line of thought after Jacen Solo.

I agree there are books in the EU that ignore the duality of the Force, either due to the writer simply not wanting to embrace the concept or not understanding it fully. There are a lot of EU books, and they can't all be self-consistent.

Lucas has said a lot of contradictory things. There may be some record of him saying this, but I don't think any Star Wars canon backs this up.

There's EU cannon all over the place that backs this up, including the movies themselves. @howler1313 just cited the Revan arc, which is the most popular EU cannon story there is due to great story and the beloved video game.

The Dark Side has evil in it.

No, it doesn't; I think you might be misunderstanding the nuance.

The difference between the light and dark side is literally the difference between passion and tranquility, between strength and passivity, between wielding power and ceding it. Passion, strength, and power are not inherently evil. To be passionate is not evil. To be strong is not evil. To obtain power is not evil.

The choices you make with that power determines if you are or are not evil - and even then - that's only if "evil" exists period. In Star Wars, "evil" doesn't seem to exist because in so many instances throughout the story line, morality is definitively presented as being relative to "your own point of view." Evil doesn't truly exist in moral relativism; as one person's evil is another person's good and thus the two ethically cancel one another out.

Beyond that, the reality of the Force as described throughout the SW story is that there is only One Force, not two. This is repeated so often that I'm sure you've heard/read it before. There isn't a dark force that causes evil and a light force that causes good; there is only the Force, and how you choose to draw upon it and how you choose to use it or not use it determines the aspect.

I think you might be conflating the Force itself with the dangers of corruption found in all men. Since power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, the Dark Side of the Force brings with it the danger of corruption; but again, there are many who use the dark side and light side interchangeably and without fear of becoming consumed by either.

But if you choose to reject or ignore the moral relativism in Star Wars, the duality of the one force, and all these concepts, then I guess you might come to the conclusion that the Sith are inherently evil because they wield the dark side.

But if that's the case, then I think you've missed the much larger point.

It's why people who practice it "fell" and those who came back were "redeemed".

From the Jedi's perspective.

Again, it's all relative. Fallen Jedi typically don't refer to themselves this way, often finding the term insulting. Instead they believe themselves to have been "enlightened." If they choose to return to the Order, it's because they've embraced the concepts of the Jedi Order which are larger and much more structured than simply the difference between the light and dark sides of the Force.

Here's the text directly from the Wikia; maybe this will help:

"Evil is a word used by the ignorant and the weak. The dark side is about survival. It's about unleashing your inner power. It glorifies the strength of the individual."
―Darth Zannah[src]

An ancient symbol representing the dark side of the Force

The difference between the dark and light sides appears to be in how they feel to those who are aware of them. The light side at times has been described as a flowing river: soothing, constant, with hidden strength. In contrast, the dark side has been described as a roaring fire: obviously powerful, seductive, and potentially dangerous. Darth Revan and Darth Bane have also mentioned the difference between the two sides of the Force. They claimed that while the light side represented the compassion and tranquility of all beings of the galaxy, the dark side focused on individual passion and strength. They also mentioned that while the light side is about maintaining the status quo, the dark side is about change and evolution.

The dark side was seen as having been used for selfish purposes, although many darksiders who were accused of such selfishness claimed that the dark side was simply a means to achieve an end. One of the most notable examples was Anakin Skywalker, a Jedi who embraced the dark side with the intentions of saving his wife after seeing her die in a vision, even at the expense of the Jedi Order. Many found the dark side to be addictive, unable to resist its pull the more they were subjected to it. Even as their physical bodies slowly decayed, Dark side users became more powerful in the Force. However, some users, like Mara Jade, noted that the use of the dark side was a practical matter, as the power it granted was more efficient when performing destructive Force powers like telekinesis. Like the light side, the dark side was often treated as a semi-sentient entity with purposeful designs.[3][4][5]

It has been theorized by some (notably Vergere) that there is no such thing as the dark side but only malevolent intent in the user, since most dark-side users already possessed negative intentions or else fell victim to the temptations of absolute power and domination.

Darth Sidious also hinted that there was truly only one Force that was above such things as "positive and negative, black and white, good and evil." He stated that the only difference was that the Jedi saw the Force as a power in itself, while the Sith believed it was a means to power.